Post By Jraef
Post By mike_kilroy
Huanyang VFD question
I bought a Huanyang VFD online, and am wondering if it's the wrong one for my needs. Hoping someone here can maybe shed some light...
The VFD is labelled as a 110v 1.5kW inverter. The label on the side (partly in chinese) states that the input accepted is single phase 110v ac. It also says that the output is "3ph 0-110ac 1.5kW 13a".
I didn't know there was such a thing as 110v 3 phase power? I'm in the US.
Anyway, my motor is a 2hp leeson 3 phase motor, and can be set up for low voltage (208-230v) or high voltage (460v).
Does this mean that my VFD won't work with this motor? And if so, is it possible to even find 110v 3phase 2hp motors? Don't think I've ever seen one...
Thanks in advance!
Your VFD should have come with the manual, which will list various models and their inputs. Check that. Frankly, I'm surprised that a 110 only VFD even exists and suspect it's a typo.
I've played with one of these; a 1.5 hp model that was advertised as 2 hp. Might be the same as yours: model DY01D523B. The factory defaults were a mess -- it wouldn't run out of the box. But after setting the parameters it's been running fine.
I don't think it's a typo. The ebay ad was for a 220v 1.5kW inverter, and within the ad it said in red letters "also available in 110v". When I messaged the seller, they said to purchase the 220v item, but state that I wanted the 110v version (at the time, I believed it would be 110v single phase in, 220v 3 phase out).
When it arrived, the front panel and side panel both say 110v or 115v. I took a few pictures to show it:
The manual is not very helpful. It's a generic manual for several models, but it only mentions 220v and 380v versions. See the pics of the relevant pages below:
I've contacted the seller to ask exactly what this VFD (model HY01D511B) puts out, but have not yet heard back.
Is there any easy way to test what the VFD output is? What would happen if I connected the motor (wired for 220v) to a 110v 3 phase source?
Lee, As you suggested above -- you're not going to find a 110v 3 phase source, at least here. You might try hooking it to single phase and seeing what output you get -- and also if there is an option in the manual for different output voltages. Could be you can get 3 phase around 208+ volts.
Originally Posted by leeko
But it sounds like what you really want is to return the one you have and get one that can be driven from 220-240v single phase with a 3 phase output to match your motor. You'd probably want go one size up from what they claim is a 2hp converter.
Let this serve as a cautionary note to potential buyers of these Huanyang POS drives. Internet forums are FILLING with people looking for help because they are getting little or no response from the eBay sellers. I think the Chinese are dumping these things on the market at extremely low prices using eBay, then they change their eBay profiles too fast for anyone to catch up to them when there are problems.
They are marginal at best, but most are pure junk. Huanyang is probably not really a legitimate manufacturer, as evidenced by the above lack of understanding of what the market is really looking for, but rather a cloner of some other VFD that was contracted to be built in China by another hapless VFD company (some say Hitachi) that has had their IP stolen.
It is also highly doubtful that any of this crap is UL listed. Some of the seller's sites say it is, others do not. But if you go onto UL's Certification website, Huanyang is not shown as a mfr.
UL Online Certifications Directory
One CAN deliver 200 and higher output voltages from a lesser input - 12VDC, 24VDC, 48 VDC inverters for UPS and Telco use do it all the time. But it is highly unlikely a 'vanilla' Huanyang Inverter VFD is so configured. Its 230/240 VAC single phase in, 'similar' voltage 3 phase out cousin is wot's wanted here.
Originally Posted by PeteM
The under 5 Hp Huanyang are supposedly not in need of de-rating for single-phase input. That said, they are built to a price, so a 25% to 50% de-rating would still be a Very Good Idea for longer rectifier bridge and capacitor life and a bit greater margin as to cooling.
You'd probably want go one size up from what they claim is a 2hp converter.
Near as I can tell from my 4HP unit and manual, most components are the same, the higher rating getting mainly larger capacitors and a bigger heat-sink, so trading up is cheap enough insurance.
Bravo. I so agree that when I see this Chinese name in a post I totally ignore it.
Originally Posted by Jraef
I am seeing buy America making a come back with my customers. It is a really pleasant state of affairs. I love to save money on stuff, but gosh, it sure seems we should all at least stop buying this junk!
Thanks for the info.
I've contacted the seller, and they have so far been very responsive. They stated that they provided what they thought was the voltage version suitable for the US - 110v. I said that their ebay listing was confusing, and made it seem like the VFD would output 220v, and have requested an exchange. We'll see what they say...
My very nicely done 66-page manual has Huanyang Inverter (exporter, not manufacturer), and Hong Kong Y&F Group Limited (also a trading company) on it. Actual makers are Chinese-speaking, 'Real Chinese' companies further inland .... whose major market is also Chinese,
Originally Posted by leeko
As one might expect, given that their major use of electricity is to run manufacturing machinery, whereas in the US we use most of ours for keeping the TV warm, air-con and beer cooler cold.
Those in the sour-grapes seating dare not look at the labels on their local keyboards, (Kensington, made in China), 'puters' (IBM Thinkpad, made in China), routers/WiFi (Netgear, made in China), subscriber drop (Clear Spot 4G 'Voyager' made in China), let alone the upstream gear on the backbone, lest they find they couldn't GET online to slam Chinese goods ... without ... the Chinese goods that make it possible.
Bit late in the game to bemoan THAT paradigm... Time to move on..
Thermite, I couldn't agree more.
I have no problem with buying from importers, and will continue to do so. The manual for my Huanyang is indeed very well done - just not specific for my model.
However, an interesting update:
I emailed the importer company I bought it from (Amonstar), and they've been very responsive and very helpful. They've stated that they're very sorry for the misunderstanding, as they thought that the motors in the USA were all 110v. However, they said that the model of VFD I received will also accept 220v input, and will output 220v 3-phase - happy news!
Incredibly, they also suggested that I buy a step-up transformer to achieve the 220v input, and have said that they will reimburse me when I show the receipt! Not sure I'll take them up on that, but I'll probably just run a 220v line out to my garage instead.
Thanks again for all your help and advice,
Keep in mind that you are dealing with a reseller, not the factory, so a 'clerk', not an Engineer or technician.
Originally Posted by leeko
Not to forget .. the KW or VA rating is also limited by component heating, so .. will you still have enough current (half as much) at the higher voltage?
I've said elesewhere I figure these units to be usable at only half their nameplate, so if yours doesn't have double the HP you plan to use it with, the voltage rating is secondary.
But it isn't hard to check.
In the case of my 230V 4 HP unit, 3 fat aluminium/electrolytic capacitors in two MFD values sit nestled amongst the back-mounted heat sink fins - visible from the outside and all marked 400V. These should be on the rectified DC derived from the AC input, and 400V is the minimum, 600 would have been better.
Inside on the PCB attached to the SCR's are three smaller ones, one per phase for smoothing the ugly synthetic sine wave - either not electrolytic at all, (paper/mylar) ELSE solid-electrolyte, and marked 1000V.
The power and control PCB's OTOH are infested with ordinary aluminium/electrolytic capacitors.
For reasons best traced on the 'net, and starting back about ten years, no 'wet' electrolytic capacitor made in Asia outside of Japan-proper, and only a few brands there, should be expected to serve more than 3 years 24x7, some won't make one year, some will fail whilst on the shelf, a few might go 15 years.
Solid electrolyte capacitors are a different animal, but cost accordingly. See GigaByte's better motherboards.
I had to saw two corners off the case to defeat anti-tamper screws, so if there is a repair program, it includes a new center case.
So we have a 'disposable' VFD here. China copied our 'Cowboy Economy' approach along with everything else.
Fortunately, they are priced accordingly - about 1/4 of what a proper Yaskawa VFD goes for, and those are not Cadillacs.
Don't use it to power expensive CNC, medical gear or Granny's lift motor, but it should do fine on 'manual' gear for just making chips.
You confused me a bit. The purpose of a VFD is to drive an induction motor at varying speeds. This is done by changing the frequency of the output power. If you are looking for a 60 Hz output, these things are not the solution. Also please understand that a motor will be wound for a given frequency and when a higher or lower frequency is used, the powerfactor goes to hell. Yes the motor will go faster and slower, but not without a efficiency loss. At lower speeds than designed, the motor will draw more current and run warmer. At higher than design speeds the motor draws less current and produces less torque. The advice you received of using an inverter with a power rating 50% greater than your needs is prudent, no matter who makes it. These devices are solid state devices, the output is not sinosoidal and capacitors are used to smooth the power signal. Heat is your enemy. The warmer this thing gets, the shorter its life span.
'One of' the purposes, yes. VFD describes a capability. The general class (of most) is 'inverter' (short term) or rectifier-inverter (longer).
Originally Posted by steve-l
What most consist of is an AC-to-DC rectification circuit with filtering, the output of which is then switched and shaped into (a form of) AC again - the 'inverter' part.
The OPTIONS have to do with whether the input may be single or polyphase, (or even DC), whether the output AC is single or polyphase, whether or not the frequency can be varied, whether or not it has feedback for stabilization, and of what sort, and whether optimizable for torque or RPM stabilization.
At the top of the food-chain, a 'Phase Perfect' outputs a clean sine-wave (one per phase, actually), just as a Lorain inverter in a telco facility did fifty and more years ago (single-phase, generally). Both were/are bulky, heavy, and costly. Neither had variability as a primary goal, if at all.
At the bottom of the food chain, lesser and lighter gear gets by with a synthetic sine wave (or several), the result of 'chunks' of pulse-width, pulse-amplitude, or even pulse-code modulation, and not all that perfectly integrated.
Switching transients are expected to be damped only partly on the device, the rest is up to the load, the iron and copper in a motor making a fairly decent 'filter' in its own right.
The El Cheapo's, such as the Huanyang branded ones, cost very litte, weigh next to nothing to ship vs a Rotary Phase Converter, and - in theory - deliver 100% of what the motor needs vs the 67% or so of an RPC, as all phases are present.
External braking resistors sometimes needed as they do not internally fare all that well at handling regenerated power back FROM the motor (whereas a Phase Perfect DOES do).
Some users need and want the variable speed for a wide range, others want only an inexpensive single-phase to 3-phase conversion fixed at 60 Hz. Most use at least some of the variability as part of starting ramp-up, going perhaps from 15 Hz to 60 Hz, then sitting on 60 Hz thereafter. 'Modest' variabilty can also move a resonating cutter off to a non-resonant range.
So .. .the cheap VFD has become not just a speed-control device, but also an 'acceptable' alternative to bulky and costly to ship RPC or costly (and 'not small') Phase Perfect wherever 3-phase mains power is absent.
Very much so.
Also please understand that a motor will be wound for a given frequency and when a higher or lower frequency is used, the powerfactor goes to hell. Yes the motor will go faster and slower, but not without a efficiency loss. At lower speeds than designed, the motor will draw more current and run warmer. At higher than design speeds the motor draws less current and produces less torque.
Look for example at nameplates on motors designed for simple dual-service in 50Hz and 60 Hz markets, a very modest frequency difference. Significant de-rating, different current and temperatures.
Specialized motors - even 'servo' style - are very much on the menu for any effective wide-range use, and DC motors with DC drives still fare quite well against AC+VFD in that area of performance, if not on economics.
The biggest 'killer' is that the 'Great Capacitor Scandel' of the 1990's - affecting everything from 'puters to TV to telco to power distribution, and expected to have suicided itself out of the chain YEARS ago, has NOT gone away. It has simply been followed by more of the same.
The advice you received of using an inverter with a power rating 50% greater than your needs is prudent, no matter who makes it. These devices are solid state devices, the output is not sinosoidal and capacitors are used to smooth the power signal. Heat is your enemy. The warmer this thing gets, the shorter its life span.
Driven by the 'American Disease' ("we are cheaper than..."), short life-expectancy aluminium electrolytic capacitors remain dominant, and the few (very damned few!) better brands continue to be counterfeited.
One COULD replace all (22 or so) capacitors of that ilk on a Huanyang's multiple PCB with solid tantalum AND sliver-mica bypass caps, or something selectively in-between not quite so drastic ... but it would no longer be a $75 - $120 VFD/Phase converter.
De-rating AND insuring good cooling ain't a solution, but remains cheap and effortless, and 'should' buy significant time. All the more so for infrequent use rather than multi-shift factory operation.
That said, at the low prices, any 24x7x365 operation that is actually earning its keep can easily justify frequent replacement, so the "American Disease" aspect ain't going away.
Best we can hope for is that Yaskawa (AKA/OEM for several other names since resorbed or dropped) - a 'medium quality' maker - raises their quality rather than lowers it and remains fairly affordable. Ditto Hitachi and a few other medium price makers.
I don't see any reason Phase Perfect will - or even CAN - lower their prices, nor why they should want to do.
There will always be a market for the very best in any field.