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Hypothetical: What happens if you run a 460V inverter-duty motor on 230?

greenbuggy

Stainless
Joined
Oct 6, 2005
Location
Firestone, CO
I know that many 460V 3 phase motors will run on 230 at approximately half the RPM's....my question is, is an inverter duty rated motor going to overheat doing this long-term, or cause any other sort of damage?
 
Still brain fart.

Torque will be 1/4 because it is related to input power which varies with the square of the voltage.
 
To answer your question:
Bad shit will happen. You're going to pull a lot more current through the motor and you'll fry the windings. Unless it's a very specialized motor you should be able to reconnect the windings to operate it on the lower voltage.

I had a '4 speed' motor from an old straight line rip that that was not the case on and cost $1500 to get rewound, but that was a pretty damn specialized motor.
 
My experience hooking a motor connected for 240 to a 480 source was complete failure after only a few moments. IMHO...inverter duty implies the magnet wire is coated with a varnish or epoxy capable of withstanding high carrier frequencies and probably wouldn't play a part in the longevity of the motor when improperly wired.

Your title indicates this situation is "hypothetical" so I guess one need not ask if said motor is able to be connected for 480, as most 9 or 12 lead motors could.

Stuart
 
I only have experience with PMDC motors, however I know a little about them. I am pretending they are similar for this comment.

It should be fine, assuming your controller is OK with it. Your RPM will be half and your torque will be the same (kinda). A motor is not a resistive load, therefore your power is not quartered.
 
A motor creates torque based on the design ratio of voltage and frequency. So for a 460V rated motor, the V/hz ratio is 7.67V/Hz and as long as you give it 7.67V/Hz, it produces rated torque at the speed you command. Peak torque, meaning that which is used to accelerated and RE-accelerate a motor when a load is applied, varies at the SQUARE of any reduction in that ratio. So if you give a motor 1/2 voltage at a fixed frequency, it produces 1/4 torque. but what does this mean with a VFD?

IF you have 230V available, and you put it into a VFD, AND you properly program the VFD to put out 230V at 30Hz, then the V/Hz ratio is 7.67 V/Hz and the motor runs fine, just 1/2 speed. Any inverter duty motor should be capable of doing this all day long.

If you increase the speed however, you have no more volts, so the ratio drops and so does peak torque. It might keep spinning at the same speed with no load on it, but will more easily stall under load and at 60Hz, you may not even create enough torque for it to keep it's own mass spinning. When a motor slows down then, the slip increases and the motor draws more current to try to get back to normal speed. But when starved for torque, that current just heats up the motor, regardless of how it was designed.
 
My experience hooking a motor connected for 240 to a 480 source was complete failure after only a few moments. IMHO...inverter duty implies the magnet wire is coated with a varnish or epoxy capable of withstanding high carrier frequencies and probably wouldn't play a part in the longevity of the motor when improperly wired.

Your title indicates this situation is "hypothetical" so I guess one need not ask if said motor is able to be connected for 480, as most 9 or 12 lead motors could.

Stuart

I'm interested in what happens when you put half the voltage to it, not double. I'm also under the impression that "inverter duty" means more cooling fins and design considerations so it won't fry itself running at lower speeds, but I'm not certain of that just something I've seen with a few different motors out in the wild.

Would a 460V motor connected to 230 as an RPC generate similar voltages/amperages on L3 as a 230 volt motor would?
 
If you lose the concept of power for a moment, and consider current.......

You can do about anything to the motor that does not involve more current than it is rated for at the RPM you are using. Inverter duty includes cooling fans good to a slower speed, so that can be a help if you are slowing it with frequency below mains.

Since you propose to use mains frequency, you can run that motor in any way that does not involve more than rated current. It will not be efficient, but it will work.

At low volts, power obviously cannot exceed the rated current x applied volts, i.e. total power input, so there is a hard limit (which is higher than you will actually get).

Slip will be higher, max power out much lower, than at rated volts.

It does not mean instant motor death, but it's not worth much as far as efficient use of that motor.
 
I'm also under the impression that "inverter duty" means more cooling fins and design considerations so it won't fry itself running at lower speeds, but I'm not certain of that just something I've seen with a few different motors out in the wild.

Would a 460V motor connected to 230 as an RPC generate similar voltages/amperages on L3 as a 230 volt motor would?

You have to read the datasheet from the manufacturer because inverter duty can mean more than a few things.

It may have an internal slip ring to short the rotor to the frame, it might have insulated bearings instead.

Usually they advertize the constant torque as a function of rpm, below some rpm or percentage of nominal rpm you have to reduce the output torque because the fan isn't blowing as much air.

I have a totally enclosed 5 hp motor (s.f 1.25) configured for 132 volts delta; at 120vac single phase it wastes 200 watts and pulls 11.5 amps from the line.
At 138 volts which corresponds to 240 vac nominal "line" voltage it wastes 258 watts iirc and pulls 15 amps from single phase line.

From memory the amps at half line voltage were more like 6 amps and the watts probably 100.

The motor starts to saturate at 120 vac out of 132. What this means is as an RPC idler the third leg will be closer to true three phase at 120vac than it will at 132 volts. this is a 10% reduction in voltage from 230vac nominal, and its a 13% reduction from the nominal 240v that most people have across the country.

This "saturation" at 120/132 is also the same percentage I have found with half a dozen other induction motors.

I have a 2 hp synchronous motor that I manufactured from a 2 hp marathon pump motor, it too saturates at about 90% of nameplate, and 86% of nominal line voltage. It needs about 20 watts to energize the rotor coils to deliver 120/240vac 60 hz nominal output in double or single delta (corresponding to 208/415 wye, a 10% reduction from nameplate volts).

Anyhow:

My 5 hp 4 pole motor.. with no run caps. yes, it will start my 1/2 hp bench grinder as an rpc idler (both configured for 132v delta)

But once its started the line current on the third, generated leg, is close to zero.
3, 3.2, 0.2 amps under load.
The whole setup actually consumes less power if I disconnect the third leg.
Voltages at the 5 hp idler unloaded are 120, 116, 110 volts.


My 2 hp synchronous motor starts the grinder up twice as fast (when used as an rpc idler) and it delivers
.8, 1, and .5 amps to the grinder under load.
1.6, 2, 1 amp under a heavier load. (these numbers from memory i have all this data elsewhere)
voltages are more like 120, 119.5, 119 under load.



There are several things going on with RPC idlers at reduced voltage:

They will work fine at half voltage however they will be similar in performance to a motor that is about 1/3rd the nameplate hp.

This is mostly due to the electrical resistance of the windings are electrically similar to a motor of 1/4th nameplate hp.

However smaller motors are less efficient.
But the larger motor running at a reduced voltage should deliver better power at the third leg because the core is not magnetically saturated, so this is why i'm willing to speculate it will be similar to a motor of 1/3rd nameplate hp.

But perhaps more importantly the larger motor at reduced voltage will probably consume less no load watts than a motor of 1/3rd nameplate operating at full voltage.

Someone who has two motors that are the same ratio could verify.
I could test this myself I have another 2 hp 3 phase motor, but most of you are interested in much larger motors and a single digit hp motor is not very interesting when 10 hp motors will have half the electrical losses (92% efficient instead of 80%)

When you push the third generated leg up with capacitors.. i cannot speculate on whether the added voltage is generating any real torque in the driven motor. i don't believe it is.
 
....

When you push the third generated leg up with capacitors.. i cannot speculate on whether the added voltage is generating any real torque in the driven motor. i don't believe it is.

Why wouldn't it?

The capacitors correct the power factor and so relative phase, leaving just the resistance as a drop.

Volts is volts, so volts at the correct phase should be just as effective no matter what the source happens to be.
 
I know that many 460V 3 phase motors will run on 230 at approximately half the RPM's....my question is, is an inverter duty rated motor going to overheat doing this long-term, or cause any other sort of damage?

Could cost you more to re-discover hundred-plus year old facts than what surplus transformers go for. Better-yet - a motor that suits the voltage you ALREADY have.

Neither of those often 'wear out', so why stink-up your shop hoping Mother Nature is out on sick-leave?

Bill
 
Oh Bill, you old Troll. Lmao.

What the people said. You can run induction motors at all sorts of silly parameters and most E-tech guys are more than guilty of having done it at some point, myself included. It works quite well, as long as it is intermittant and you have a means of watching the temperature or currents.

But plan to do it on purpose ? Even for a permanent installation, perhaps ? No !
 
Certainy not whilst one can buy replacement Whirlpool 9 KVA 'canning' cooktop elements so cheaply and at insignificant shipping charges.

Great dummy loads and serious BFBI 'soft start' current-limiters, 'coz the one thing you can take for granted is...

THEY won't 'burn up' .... even if what is carelessly left too-damned-near 'em DOES offer to do..

Oh. And as to the 'old troll'?

Dunno if I'd admit to resembling that remark as to behaviour.

But it does seems to fit as far as physical appearance these days, so..

'No Foul'.

:)


Bill

What a waste of disk space on this server. More Mumbo-Jumbo. :Yawn:
 








 
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