New mill with Rockford motor controls.

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housedad

Aluminum

Joined

Oct 2, 2009

Location

NJ USA

• Jan 2, 2015

• #1

I have a Bridgeport Series II Special with Rockford motor controls coming in the morning to my garage. I have 240 2 phase, but the mill takes 3 phase. It is a standard 2J 2 hp head on the mill, but the Rockford controls I don't know about.

Can I use a static converter with this setup or would a vfd be better? The unit has a Variable speed head, so I don't need the vfd to handle that, but if I understand correctly, the VFD will run at full power and the static at less than full power. Is that right?

I'd like to keep it as simple and inexpensive as possible, but then again, that is rarely the case in life.......

 

A

abarnsley

Titanium

Joined

Mar 24, 2005

Location

Palmer, Alaska

• Jan 2, 2015

• #2

Simple and inexpensive (Static convertor) is worst method... Wires right up..

Only 2/3 of original hp available (so only ~1.3hp and then add vari drive losses), Also not very good at handling frequent start stop cycles...

Next RPC.. Can be built (see top RPC plans sticky on this forum) Kind of heavy, bulky, can be noisy, lots of Line voltage connections.. Can run several motors at one time (within it's capacity) Wires right up..

VFD variable speed, does not handle mutiple motors.. Full power, and capable of expanding speed range of mill.. (not much up due to balance/belt issues on Vari- Drive... but plenty down). You can wire VFD in, leave it set to 60 HZ, and use as a fairly economical solution. 220 v single phase input VFD's are not too expensive..
Requires motor switch being wired to VFD control terminal strip.. This is low voltage wiring and only 3 or 6 wires depending on what you want VFD to do..

VFD will need the most head scratching, getting basic settings right.. Not bad after you have done 1 though..

VFD offers best motor protection, and with motor ramp up and down settings, makes life easier on vari drive system.

In your area, it should not be hard to find A PM member, that can walk you through a VFD install.. I have helped a few online...

Phase perfect unit, too $$$ and overkill for a BP...

 

H

housedad

Aluminum

Joined

Oct 2, 2009

Location

NJ USA

• Jan 3, 2015

• #3

Thank you. That is precisely what I needed to know.

I had a Idea that a VFD would be the way to go and just leave it as a converter. Looks like I need to start reading some data sheets on them and figure it all out. I'm sure there will be more questions as it goes along

Again, thanks

 

K

kd1yt

Cast Iron

Joined

Dec 6, 2013

Location

Vermont, USA

• Jan 3, 2015

• #4

Not clear on whether your BP has multiple motors (such as for table, coolant, etc.) but if so, you need 1x VFD for each of those- separately. Regardless of how many motors, you will need to have each VFD 'downstream' of any other switchgear, etc., and the last thing before the motor. I've been wrestling with the same dilemmas with a Cincinatti Toolmaster and it appears that path of least complexity is a RPC.

 

H

housedad

Aluminum

Joined

Oct 2, 2009

Location

NJ USA

• Jan 7, 2015

• #5

Thanks. The only 3 phase motor is the spindle. all other motors are 120v. They all power up an work fine. I am grateful for that.

Really, they are "Rockford" controls. Luckily I found a wiring diagram inside the box. The schematic title is 'COMBINATION STARTER NO DISC 12 AMP REV MOTOR STARTER" The Schematic date is 12/8/2011.

Here are a couple of pics.

 

H

housedad

Aluminum

Joined

Oct 2, 2009

Location

NJ USA

• Jan 7, 2015

• #6

Ahh, found them!!

Rockford Systems, INC.

The controller is a RSD0210-P1 according to the schematic plans. Here is the web page. http://www.rockfordsystems.com/online/dsc/disconnfused.cfm It looks like it won't have a problem with a vfd. I guess I should email the company and verify it.

 

H

housedad

Aluminum

Joined

Oct 2, 2009

Location

NJ USA

• Jan 7, 2015

• #7

OK, Ok. Now I get it. After studying for a while, I finally figured it out. It merely provides a convenient panel at the head that provides a emergency stop, a separate forward and reverse button, and a Jog/Run key switch. I see why the did this. It was probably to appease some OSHA regulations.

It gets rid of the drum switch and replaced it with 2 contactors (Schneider LC1D12) and a overload relay to make a starter and handle all the functions. With this setup, there is no 240 3 phase at the control box on the head, and instead uses 110v from a transformer. Less lethal, and more reliable.

So I just read that I should not have anything between the VFD and the motor or the surge from the caps discharging or noise from the contactors could fry the VFD diodes. Swell. So maybe I need to just gut out the control box, install a VFD, and wire the controls at the head directly to the VFD inputs.

Would that work? Sounds too simple.

Still learning......

 

Last edited: Jan 7, 2015

A

abarnsley

Titanium

Joined

Mar 24, 2005

Location

Palmer, Alaska

• Jan 7, 2015

• #8

Yes gut and play.. Those new fangled transistor things, kind of replaced many lower 220 v power contactors.. 30+ years ago...

So you spent time, looking up Model T Ford era electric tech .............

I prefer either a rotary (stock bp motor switch).. Or a 3 position toggle switch.. Fwd/Off/Rvs.... Over direction buttons... when reversing is needed..

You have 100% contact with ONE control handle..

Harder to power tap with push buttons..

Yes OSHA liked to add a few things, like No restart on power loss, without manual reset.. VFD just happens to be able to do that... Old school needed contactors.. Which allowed lower voltage controls to pull in contactors.. Less line voltage switching.. VFD's switch at ~10 v and 20 milliamps... No smoke, No sparks, No flame, No contacts welding together..

VFD motor protection, is light years ahead of the primitive heaters, in an antique low hp motor starter unit..

 

H

housedad

Aluminum

Joined

Oct 2, 2009

Location

NJ USA

• Jan 7, 2015

• #9

Seems a shame, since the controls are only 4 years old. But, the new setup will be better. I just have to figure out what vfd will be the right size and reliable. So many to choose from.

I see this one that might be a likely candidate but I'll keep searching.
https://www.driveswarehouse.com/p-2526-wj200-015sf.aspx

 

Philabuster

Diamond

Joined

Jul 12, 2006

Location

Tempe, AZ

• Jan 7, 2015

• #10

It was probably to appease some OSHA regulations.

Click to expand...

Actually, it was most likely done to please an internal safety Nazi at a big corp. BTDT and still dealing with this bullshit ourselves.

Rip off ALL of that Rockford shit and put an old drum switch back on to control the VFD. Done.

 

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jraksdhs

Aluminum

Joined

Jun 10, 2014

Location

Dover, DE USA

• Jan 7, 2015

• #11

Housedad, I bought this one: GS2-22P0 but in a 3hp version for my Jet mill. Price was great, shipping was fast, and customer service was top notch. I called several times after I got the VFD just to ask questions about hooking it up. Would high recommend them.

Jason

 

T

toolnut

Stainless

Joined

Aug 3, 2005

Location

Kingsport, TN

• Jan 7, 2015

• #12

I installed one of the Hitachi WJ200s on a friends BP series II mill about a year ago. It takes a lot of manual reading to understand how to program the VFD with features commonly used for BP. If you insist on power tapping, I would have to study some more. I did not set his up for power tapping although he thought he wanted it but I asked how often he did power tapping and he replied he had never tried to do power tapping so I did not spend any more time, or money, to implement this. All the other features work just fine.
There is a glitch in the manual that does not tell one that all the program codes are not displayed. There is a program code that must be changed to make the drive display all the codes. I can probably find this for you.

 

H

housedad

Aluminum

Joined

Oct 2, 2009

Location

NJ USA

• Jan 7, 2015

• #13

Whooow BOY! There is a lot of reading. Yes, I see that studying each manual is an absolute necessity first so that I can design the new control system BEFORE I buy anything. Already thinking of a new enclosure, salvaging some of the parts like circuit breakers, contactor and junction blocks from the old one. Maybe use one of the contactors as a auto kill before the VFD to ensure it does not come back on by itself when it is plugged in or after a power failure. Then there is motor protectiong, grounding rings or bearings, etc. Lots to think about.

The neat thing is, I really like doing this kind of thing. This is going to be fun!

I'll continue on with the R&D of this thing on this thread and keep it updated. This mill needs power so this will be happening over the next couple of weeks at maximum. The more eyes on the design, the better.

 

A

abarnsley

Titanium

Joined

Mar 24, 2005

Location

Palmer, Alaska

• Jan 8, 2015

• #14

VFD TOTALLY ELIMINATES NEED FOR A CONTACTOR..

It is usually already set, to NOT RESTART on power loss. So it does everything a mag starter does, with even better motor overload protection..

And ~50 less contactor connections..

Not many junction blocks required either.. Only a couple 2 or 3 wire loops, will handle control wiring..

Circuit breaker/fuse MAY be usable.. VFD manual will tell you what is required on input fusing...

Get rid of the Model T stuff, go 1990 tech at least

 

H

housedad

Aluminum

Joined

Oct 2, 2009

Location

NJ USA

• Jan 8, 2015

• #15

That brings back memories! Making Christmas bows with used blue/silver mylar punch tape back in the 60's my dad would bring home from Lockheed. Flipping paddles to input instructions to start a PDP8 so it would start loading a simple fortran language in the 70's. thinking I had gone to Heaven when Zilog sent me a z80 free for evaluation. Sitting on the bench of a old cray aquarium computer in a computer junkyard while I ripped at it's guts for spare logic chips in the 80's.

Man those were interesting times. I do understand. Too easy to get caught up. Will keep it in mind. Thanks.

 

A

abarnsley

Titanium

Joined

Mar 24, 2005

Location

Palmer, Alaska

• Jan 8, 2015

• #16

Get over programaphobia Bill..

Been a while since I had to deal with paper tape.. Punchcards and such... Don't miss it..

Set VFD manual by the White throne, and ponder

Many actually have a quick start section...

I just spent some long hours, cleaning the 15 or so dirty/noisy/not working potentiometers, in my 1984ish.. Sansui stereo system.

Analog is history

I have one Dinasaur Current drive in shop.. It is going away, when I find a same size, 3 phase Gear motor.

I have set up a few VFD's.. ALL different, All sorted out after only a few trys..

And yes you need to ignore 155 of those 170 settings.. That is what this forum is handy for...

Alan

 

H

housedad

Aluminum

Joined

Oct 2, 2009

Location

NJ USA

• Jan 12, 2015

• #17

Ok, I gave up. the design costs to go VFD in what I considered a safe manner were skyrocketing. On top of that, I have a headache that won't quit from reading data sheets and manuals.

I have decided to go rotary phase converter. I ordered a 5hp panel from Jim at Phase-Craft and I picked up a never used 5hp motor off of Craigslist for $125. I have to add a buck boost transformer to take it from 240 down to something the 208v mill motor can handle, some wire, connectors, cable, and plugs.

The Rockford controls don't have to go, and they can be enhanced with a larger button box at the head. Add buttons for mist coolant, flood coolant, power light, and power (120v) and I'm in business. Those outlet boxes and light switches sprinkled liberally around the machine look like crap and need to go. I found a surplus nema enclosure cheap on Ebay, and I'll run the 120 into this with a couple of contactors for the hand control box. This will allow me to wire a E stop button that kills the 120 volts at the same time as the 3 phase. Hopefully it will work out ok.

For everyone that replied, thanks for all the help. It has been a interesting learning experience, if nothing else.