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Start up problems!

ap_precision

Plastic
Joined
Nov 5, 2008
Location
Illinois
Hello everyone! To begin with, I am building my first converter and have had plenty of questions. I have a Baldor 7.5hp motor that is rated for 3450 rpm only. When I attempt to start it via pull rope, it will run for a moment and then blow the breaker (30 amp). Will I have to have this motor up to speed before I send the 220 to it? Which would be better; a start-up motor or capacitors?
Thank You
Aaron
 
I have never tried a pull rope on mine. I can either use capacitors or a pony motor. I have never had any problems with it. But I think you will need for it to reach it's operating rpm or close to it. I know I have tried to start mine at times with the pony motor and released it too soon and it did not work and had to re-engage the pony motor.
 
It should start in whatever direction you choose.

The problem MIGHT be that the motor is wired for 440v. I'm not 100% sure about that, but double checking wouldn't hurt. You're not connecting the third leg to one of the others are you?? I'd think it should run without a load if it doesn't trip the breaker once it's up to speed. Does it sound like it's up to speed, or is it grumbling? It might not be reaching synchronous speed, which could be because it's wired wrong. :skep:
 
Its my guess that your pull rope isn't quite enough to get your idler up to speed. The more time your motor spend below sync speed the longer it is drawing start up current. It should only take a second for a motor to get up to speed. If you want to build a start system for it I always suggest a capacitor start. It is a great learning tool and not really that hard. Plus you will get more satisfaction from a converter you just have to punch a button on rather than one that will some times send a belt flying across your shop. A pony start motor is a much easier build but I think it would cost about the same. Let us know what you end up doing and if you need help. K.
 
Thank you all for the input! I'm confident on my wiring and direction, however I did make the mistake of using some 12ga. wire. This has been replaced with 10ga. and seems to help out. I am awaiting delivery of a 3/4 hp 3450rpm motor to act as a pony motor. If that doesn't work, I'll be looking for capacitors.
 
Thank you all for the input! I'm confident on my wiring and direction, however I did make the mistake of using some 12ga. wire. This has been replaced with 10ga. and seems to help out. I am awaiting delivery of a 3/4 hp 3450rpm motor to act as a pony motor. If that doesn't work, I'll be looking for capacitors.

ap_precision, I start my 10HP Baldor 3450RPM idler with a 1/4HP 1725RPM pony motor.

I machined a 2" aluminum wheel for the idler and used a 4" urethane wheel for the pony, friction drive.

Took less than a day to build, out of stuff in my shop. Didn't have to look for specialty electrical equipment. I am a junk collector though...:rolleyes5:

The pony is not necessarily my preference but I don't think using capacitor start would be an improvement. My RPC is within steps of any of my 3Ph equipment so remote starting wouldn't be an advantage.

I chose the pony start because my shop feed is not up to the high inrush current of a capacitor start system, didn't have a choice.

Yes, your 3/4Hp pony is more than adequate for your 7.5Hp idler, like 4 times the HP ratio of my set-up. Mine requires a few seconds ramp-up, yours would be virtually instantaneous.

Could post photos if they might help.

Bob
 
The friction drive sounds like a very good idea. No efficiency loss from a v-belt! I chose to go with a 3450rpm motor because I didn't want to risk purchasing a standard rpm motor and have it not work. Would a 1725 motor go fast enough for a 3450 motor?

Thanks!
Aaron
 
AP

You need to spin the idler near to its rated rpm. It does not matter what rpm the pony motor is as long as you the idler up to its rated rpm. use a pony motor friction wheel that is 2x the diameter of the idler friction wheel and you can use a 1750 pony for a 3450 idler.

Capacitor start is so easy to do that I find it cheaper and much quicker than fooling around with pony motor setups. I built one belted pony motor RPC and it took me 3 times as long as an equivalent capacitor start RPC and cost more to boot.
 
"You need to spin the idler near to its rated rpm."

This is certainly true.

However, lowest inrush current will be found if the idler is spinning at synchronous speed, which is usually about 5 percent higher than rated speed.

IOW, if the rated speed is 1725 rpm, then the synchronous speed is 1800 rpm, which is 4.35 percent higher than rated speed.

If the pony is 1725 and the idler is also 1725, then the needed 1 : 1.043 step-up, in order to achieve minimum across-the-line starting current, can be achieved by two identical adjustable sheaves, setting the driving sheave slightly larger than nominal and the driven sheave slightly smaller than nominal.

But, for most applications 1 : 1 (1725 to 1725 or 3450 to 3450) is fine.
 
OK Aaron, a couple of sketches and some photos;

RPC drawings
FrictiondriveponystartRPC.jpg

Note on idler motor of "3550" is wrong, it's 3450 of course.

FrictiondriveponystartRPCII.jpg

Front
Front.jpg

Back
Back.jpg

Right end
Rightend.jpg


Heed Peters ratios for clean start up.

I had mine built and I posted that though I'd set up the wheel ratios at 2:1, same as the motors, when the idler came up to full driven, (by the pony) RPM and I threw the breaker to feed the single phase to the idler, it audibly kicked to a little higher RPM and maintained. Peter graciously straightened me out.

This has never been a problem, perfect starts every time but if I'd had Peters info earlier, I'd have machined the idler wheel 1.914" for the 4" pony drive wheel, instead of the mathematical ratio of exact 2:1, 4" driving and 2" driven.

I used a length of extruded brass gear stock that had a root diameter very close to the plastic wheel ID and machined the end to a concave ring, producing sharp little broach points on the end of the gear teeth but leaving a projecting guide plug to guide the broach and pressed this through the wheel, cutting matching "splines' in the wheel.

I then bored another piece of the gearstock to the pony motor shaft OD and drill/tapped for a set screw and turned an 'E' clip groove on each end, just outside the wheel hub width

I then mounted the brass "spline" sleeve on the shaft, securing it with a set screw.

Then installing the motor side E clip, engaging the wheel splines with the sleeve and pressing the wheel tight to the first E clip, then snapping on the second one.

Positive grip metal hub in the plastic wheel, perfect.

I have 3 more wheels and the "broach" but so far in thousands of starts, the wear has been negligible.

Momentary toggle switch for the pony motor, up to speed in around a second, step on clutch pedal with pressure gaged by ear, minimum slowing of pony. The 10Hp idler comes up to speed in a couple of seconds, throw the breaker on, instant 3Ph. Lift foot off of clutch pedal and release pony switch simultaneously, very gratifying to say nothing of useful.

Hope this helps,

Bob
 
Robert is that motor solid gold or only gold-leafed?

:)

I especially like the diamond plate on the foot pedal. That's one
classy rig. I myself of course prefer the gravity engage, rather
than the gravity disengage!

Anyhow as mentioned a 3450 idler can easily be started
with a 1725 pony motor, just size the drive pulley about twice
the size of the driven one. For the OP, unless the idler is
wired for the higher voltage you simply are not getting it
going fast enough to lock in.

Jim
 
Robert is that motor solid gold or only gold-leafed?

:)

I especially like the diamond plate on the foot pedal. That's one
classy rig. I myself of course prefer the gravity engage, rather
than the gravity disengage!

Anyhow as mentioned a 3450 idler can easily be started
with a 1725 pony motor, just size the drive pulley about twice
the size of the driven one. For the OP, unless the idler is
wired for the higher voltage you simply are not getting it
going fast enough to lock in.

Jim

At only around $1,200 from Baldor, I suspect it's the cheap gold-leafed version but of course cheap ol' Bob, (can't help it Jim, I'm Scot) picked it up locally for $125, NOS, still bolted to the factory pallet.

I had a little diamond plate left over when I covered the top and my flip-flop was taking the beautiful hammered metal paint off the pedal, ca-ca. I rolled a little piece with a little notch for the arm, to keep it in place and sprung it over the tube.

About covering the top, I embedded 6 T-nuts in the top of the plywood, bolted it into the angle from below, then smeared it with construction adhesive, diamond plate held tight to it with several pieces of 90lb RR rail for 12 hours.

For me, clean and functional starts on paper and stays there until I can't improve it any more. Then it's easy to bang it out without disappointment. Eliminates mis-starts and re-do's.

I brag about it only taking part of a Saturday to build but design took probably a week of spare time evening drawing, (several more sheets than posted) before making my shopping list. Then I bid on the motors, run capacitors, a NOS Elgin jeweled hour meter, (5 bucks, he-he) rotary switch to select which phase to send to the volt meter etc.

Had all else, big disconnect, smaller control box, all conductors, all the metal, fasteners, paint etc. on hand.

I suspect the other "braggers" spend a little time on design/shopping list/aquisition too, that they don't include in build time.

Saturday evening I painted it and Sunday morning I bolted the top on and clipped on the clutch pedal cover.

The ten or so NOS run capacitors I bought as a lot for "nothing", still sit in my electrical drawer, waiting for the day that the RPC or one of my machines hints that they'd like a little correction.

Up to 5HP, (K & T 2H) seem happy as a lark, oblivious to whatever imbalance may be in the system.

Too lazy to balance? Maybe but it's more that I'm cheap and am still waiting to "steal" a Fluke 30 to do it right. Besides, that would run the cost over the "less than $200" I like to brag about. Still going to do it though, then I'll say, "but I use the Fluke on other things too, tool, doesn't count."

This past summer, (100F desert, ambient shop) I ran a series of sophisticated tests. Whenever I thought about it, I put my hand on the idler to test temp. Never more than warm. I kept the accurate log in my head.:) The fan is big, and @ 3450RPM, makes a blast worthy of a wind tunnel, as might be expected for ten horses buried in tightly closed gold-leafed cast iron, TEFC. Might be cast aluminum. The blast is loud but I think I'll not trim the plastic fan blades, I can take the racket, don't want to fall into the problem had by the cheap native American self-moyle, as he dropped his bloody tomahawk and uttered, "ugh, too much.'

Bob;)
 
I just received my pony motor today. It is a Baldor 3/4 hp rated for 3450 rpm. As soon as I get it mounted up and wired, I'll post some pics.
Thanks again for all the help and good advice!
Aaron
 
That is a fantastic looking phase converter. I'm already embarassed to post pics of mine! I do enjoy seeing the Baldor Super E(toolmaker for Baldor).

Aaron
 
That is a fantastic looking phase converter. I'm already embarassed to post pics of mine! I do enjoy seeing the Baldor Super E(toolmaker for Baldor).

Aaron

Not to fret Aaron, I'm sure you've gone through the "sticky" that heads this forum. Look at the first entry, Jim Rozens perfectly functional RPC devoid of do-dads. Quick and easy, now get down to the reason you set up your shop.

My second post, 6 down, expresses my opinion of Jims RPC.

Bob
 








 
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