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Why did my bleeder resistors blow?

CADman_KS

Aluminum
Joined
Dec 6, 2014
Over in this thread: Lincoln CV-400 on single phase, I have successfully configured my CV-400 to run on single phase.

However, when I did the final conversion on it, including putting bleeder resistors on, all of my bleeder resistors blew in about 30 seconds. The capacitor bank in this conversion is (8) 50mfd motor run caps all in parallel (see pic at end).

I soldered a 15k ohm 5 Watt metal film resistors across each cap.

I thought that I was using the proper type of resistor, and I thought that I was doing this correctly. What happened? Do I need to multiply that resistor load by 8 since they are in parallel and look for a 120K 5W resistor?

IMAG0177.jpg IMAG0175.jpg
 
You need wire wound resistors, a lot bigger than 5 watt. 30 or so min. I would think.

I can't find it in a thread right now, but I'm pretty sure that in one of the Dave Kamp's conversion threads he talks about using foil resistors, which is what I used.

In fact, the ones that I used look like they are about twice the size of the ones that he used on his single capacitor...

Hummm...
 
So this is 230V?

It looks like your final schematic is primary in wye, while I thought it would be delta....Hmmmm

Your schematic shows that you don't really NEED bleeders, since there is a discharge path through the other winding. You could probably eliminate them.

You want to keep them anyway, and there is some reason to, for prevention of surprises

Anyway, those resistors do NOT look like 5W. I'd guess them at maybe 3W based on estimated size, although there exist some similar sized 5W.

If they were really 5W, and volts were max high line for 240V they still might be OK. At that level they would be dissipating 4.6W. Most resistors will not burn until 1.5 to 2 x dissipation.

But... the time constant for those resistors and the 50 uF caps is about 0.75 second, meaning only about 2 seconds to get down to only a few volts. You could double the resistance and still be OK per the usual safety agencies, and that would cut the dissipation. Or go higher and for your purposes it would be fine.

As for why they burned, either they were not 5W, they were not 15k, or the voltage is higher than it seems. All are possible. You were not crazy high in dissipation, since they heated relatively slowly and seem to have burned up "quietly".

If you go with 5W 30K resistors, the voltage can be up to 400V and you will just be up to 5W.

Since you do not need to make the safety agencies happy, just go with 47K 5w and all should be well pretty much no matter what. Your discharge time will be under 10 seconds even there without the other windings. The agencies want 5 seconds, in general, and 1 second for parts connected across the mains.

With the winding doing the discharge, you should meet the agency requirement regardless (if you care), and be just fine.
 
I soldered a 15k ohm 5 Watt metal film resistors across each cap.

I thought that I was using the proper type of resistor, and I thought that I was doing this correctly. What happened? Do I need to multiply that resistor load by 8 since they are in parallel and look for a 120K 5W resistor?

View attachment 142894 View attachment 142895

Boy did you blow it:D

What you did was connect 8 15k's in parallel which would mean the equivalent value is 1875.
Your RC time constant is 0.75sec. You don't need the capacitor bank to discharge so fast.
You are also wasting 28 watts continuously. A small value resistor changes the dynamics of the running environment.
Use a 240K 2 watt resistor. Your capacitor bank would take a few minutes to discharge. And
don't solder the resistor across the cap. Just crimp two connectors on the ends of the 240K
and plug on one of the capacitors as you did the wiring. The whole job looks pretty clean otherwise.
 
Boy did you blow it:D

...

LOL! I included the picture of said blowness just so everyone can feel my pain!! ;)

IMAG0201.jpg

...
Use a 240K 2 watt resistor. Your capacitor bank would take a few minutes to discharge. And
don't solder the resistor across the cap. Just crimp two connectors on the ends of the 240K
and plug on one of the capacitors as you did the wiring. The whole job looks pretty clean otherwise.

I'll look for some of those and try again. The soldering thing did take a while, and looking back on it now, I can't really easily "replace" them if I needed to, so the connectors sounds like a better idea anyway.

Thanks for the compliment on the pretty clean otherwise. I don't always practice this, but I try to: "If something is WORTH doing, it's WORTH doing right."

Thanks for the input!
 
So this is 230V?

It looks like your final schematic is primary in wye, while I thought it would be delta....Hmmmm

Your schematic shows that you don't really NEED bleeders, since there is a discharge path through the other winding. You could probably eliminate them.

...

I said this over in my conversion post, that I didn't really understand how/why it's working, but it dang sure is!, and working well at that! I understand the wye vs. delta concept, and I've always thought in my mind that it's a wye configuration, but everyone says that shouldn't work. But it does! I don't recall if I went thru this over in the original thread, but I did try a TRUE delta configuration and it blew the main breaker immediately, so I knew that wasn't the proper way to wire it!

I am fine tuning lower voltages today, and I needed to take a couple of the caps out of the system. I put a meter on them, and they have no voltage across them, so I'm assuming that it is being already bled off like you indicated, so it's good to hear that my suspicions pan out.

Thanks for the input!!!
 
Are foil resistors OK?

I forgot to add this: is there anything wrong with foil resistors, or should I be looking for a specific type of construction?

Thanks!
 
I forgot to add this: is there anything wrong with foil resistors, or should I be looking for a specific type of construction?

Thanks!

Watts is watts..... As long as they are used within spec, all is well. Your application makes little demand on the parts for any specialized ratings.

Metal film and foil types often tend to tolerate overloads better than some others. The foil types tend to be very stable in resistance. They have lots of other characteristics that make them suitable for many special applications.

Basically NONE of those do you any good, and you can do just as well with a wire-wound or metal film type if the cost is less.
 
I'll look for some of those and try again. The soldering thing did take a while, and looking back on it now, I can't really easily "replace" them if I needed to, so the connectors sounds like a better idea anyway.

QUOTE]

You can do this yourself. One time constant = R * C. Five time constant periods
would allow the voltage across your cap array to be nearly zero. For example:

400uf * 100K = 40 seconds , multiply by 5 and you get 200 seconds. Figure out
the resistor value that you can live with. Power rating = (V * V)/R = 0.52 watt.
A 2 watt 100k would be safe enough. I think my suggestion for 240k is too high.
 
As best I can tell from your pictures the color bands are brown (1), green (5), black (no multiplier) or 15 Ohm.
The damage you have shown is as I would expect from a 5 Watt resistor with over 3.5 KW of power applied.

15K should be brown (1), green (5), orange (000)

Bill
 
If they were really getting that, I'd not have though it would take 30 sec..... more like 1/3 second..... I've seen things like that happen.

They might be 1% resistors, in which case they would have 4 bands. We can't see enough, or at least I didn't.

15k 1% would have 1 5 0 2 or brown green black red The burnt spot is where some bands are.
 
I suggested wirewounds for durability.

Important to note that because this is an interaction of inductive and capacitive reactance, when the machine is running, voltage across the capacitor banks can swing higher than applied voltage. I haven't had any of mine swing past 2x across the capacitor banks, but it's theoretically possible, and when the contactor bangs open and closed, the collapsing field could sock it with spikes higher, so there's no reason not to be conservative in ratings. On my first CP-200 conversion, I WAG'd 15k 5-watt, with expectation that one soldered across each cap would survive and protect an individual against something bad, and as long as the interconnections were good, a failed cap in ONE place along the bank would be bled down by the others elsewhere in the bank.

The concern I also have... is that in this conversion, some machines switch the primary, some switch the secondary... if the primary is switched, the cap charges can hold long enough for a user to reclose when the phase of input AC is at some other potential than that of the capacitor, which causes a really hard 'bang' of current through the wiring. I have not yet experienced a failure on any of my machines, but that doesn't mean it won't happen.

One concern that I've always had, is the connectors on a capacitor, and how the capacitor 'banks' are interconnected. I HAVE found the push-on connectors to be variable in their reliability- most very good, but sometimes one connection goes bad. I've had some that were suspect, but apparently welded themselves on, and solved their own problem.

I WILL note that series resistance of the connectors IS somewhat of a concern also- when I wire up my cap banks, I'll daisy chain capacitors together, I'll put ONE connection lead at ONE end of the bank, and one at the OTHER, so that I don't wind up with the 'close' capacitors carrying all the load, and the 'far' ones not.

Keep in mind on these, that the bleeder resistors are ALWAYS carrying 'some' current... whenever there's power applied to the primary... and whenever there's a charge in the capacitors.

If just ONE is burning up, then there's a reason... could be as simple as a 'bad' one, or could be some other problem, but in order to burn a resistor, one has to exceed it's ability to either dissipate, or insulate. Nobody really pays much attention to insulation capacity of a resistor nowdays, because there's not much 'high voltage' flying around in our battery-powered gadgets, but realize that in a wound resistor, you have a coil, and that coil has turns which are 'spaced' apart, first, so that heat may dissipate, and second, so that voltage potential of one turn doesn't 'jump' to the next. If you put a high-voltage resistance tester (an HV supply with current limitation), you'll see that once a certain voltage is exceeded, the resistor's value drops rapidly, because the turns are shorting. This doesn't happen much with DC, but when you get to alternating current, and particularly high frequency (as low as khz, and certainly HF), you'll get current flow that bypasses the windings and just flows right by unresisted. I doubt this is happening, but if there's a marginal connection somewhere that's causing high-frequency oscillation across the cap, you may be seeing something like that. An AM radio playing nearby will give you a nice audible hint.

One thing that perplexes me... Why do your capacitors have a + sign marked on them?
 
As best I can tell from your pictures the color bands are brown (1), green (5), black (no multiplier) or 15 Ohm.
The damage you have shown is as I would expect from a 5 Watt resistor with over 3.5 KW of power applied.

15K should be brown (1), green (5), orange (000)

Bill

If they were really getting that, I'd not have though it would take 30 sec..... more like 1/3 second..... I've seen things like that happen.

They might be 1% resistors, in which case they would have 4 bands. We can't see enough, or at least I didn't.

15k 1% would have 1 5 0 2 or brown green black red The burnt spot is where some bands are.

These are indeed 1% resistors, and the colors are brown green black red/orange (it's hard to tell). Here's a picture of what a "good" one looks like:

IMAG0205.jpg

Welll... if you needed 8, did you perchance buy 10 - given that they are usually cheaper in lots of ten or more? If so, measure the resistance / check the markings - even artificially stress-test (to get a hint at Wattage..) - one or more of the unused ones...

:)

LOL! I not only have 8, I had 43! Now I have 35 "good" ones. ;) I just measured it, and it does indeed measure 15K...

Hummmm...
 
Thanks for the follow up Dave!

I suggested wirewounds for durability.

Important to note that because this is an interaction of inductive and capacitive reactance, when the machine is running, voltage across the capacitor banks can swing higher than applied voltage. I haven't had any of mine swing past 2x across the capacitor banks, but it's theoretically possible, and when the contactor bangs open and closed, the collapsing field could sock it with spikes higher, so there's no reason not to be conservative in ratings. On my first CP-200 conversion, I WAG'd 15k 5-watt, with expectation that one soldered across each cap would survive and protect an individual against something bad, and as long as the interconnections were good, a failed cap in ONE place along the bank would be bled down by the others elsewhere in the bank.

The concern I also have... is that in this conversion, some machines switch the primary, some switch the secondary... if the primary is switched, the cap charges can hold long enough for a user to reclose when the phase of input AC is at some other potential than that of the capacitor, which causes a really hard 'bang' of current through the wiring. I have not yet experienced a failure on any of my machines, but that doesn't mean it won't happen.

One concern that I've always had, is the connectors on a capacitor, and how the capacitor 'banks' are interconnected. I HAVE found the push-on connectors to be variable in their reliability- most very good, but sometimes one connection goes bad. I've had some that were suspect, but apparently welded themselves on, and solved their own problem.

I WILL note that series resistance of the connectors IS somewhat of a concern also- when I wire up my cap banks, I'll daisy chain capacitors together, I'll put ONE connection lead at ONE end of the bank, and one at the OTHER, so that I don't wind up with the 'close' capacitors carrying all the load, and the 'far' ones not.

Keep in mind on these, that the bleeder resistors are ALWAYS carrying 'some' current... whenever there's power applied to the primary... and whenever there's a charge in the capacitors.

If just ONE is burning up, then there's a reason... could be as simple as a 'bad' one, or could be some other problem, but in order to burn a resistor, one has to exceed it's ability to either dissipate, or insulate. Nobody really pays much attention to insulation capacity of a resistor nowdays, because there's not much 'high voltage' flying around in our battery-powered gadgets, but realize that in a wound resistor, you have a coil, and that coil has turns which are 'spaced' apart, first, so that heat may dissipate, and second, so that voltage potential of one turn doesn't 'jump' to the next. If you put a high-voltage resistance tester (an HV supply with current limitation), you'll see that once a certain voltage is exceeded, the resistor's value drops rapidly, because the turns are shorting. This doesn't happen much with DC, but when you get to alternating current, and particularly high frequency (as low as khz, and certainly HF), you'll get current flow that bypasses the windings and just flows right by unresisted. I doubt this is happening, but if there's a marginal connection somewhere that's causing high-frequency oscillation across the cap, you may be seeing something like that. An AM radio playing nearby will give you a nice audible hint.

One thing that perplexes me... Why do your capacitors have a + sign marked on them?

LOL on the + sign! I didn't have enough of two different wire colors, so I used all black for the interconnects. To make sure that I was always going to the proper side, I put a + on there to designate which side was which. I probably should have used something like a red dot, but plus was easy, so that's what I used.

I also wondered about the daisy chaining and hooking to one end vs. both ends. I've had it configured both ways, and I couldn't tell a difference. But, my conversion now has a new wrinkle in that I have a switch in there that allows me to change from 8 caps to 4 caps. 8 caps are too much phase shift for welding at 20V and below. The arc just won't stabilize, and the machine really hums like it's working hard. Changing to 4 caps below 20V helps, but it's still a little hard to weld with this machine below 20V. I suspect that has something to do with the fact that it's a 400A welder to begin with! I don't think in general it likes or wants to weld down there. Because of the addition of the switch, it was easier wiring to leave the connections on the same end, and just use a switch to "split" it in the middle...
 
Those are indeed 15,000 ohm resistors.

Color code:

Because they're one percent resistors the last band is brown. (one)

Because being one percent resistors, the code requires *three* significant digits: brown green black (1-5- 0)

Then the multiplier: red ( X 100)

So decoded: 150 00, one percent.

For carbon resistors the tolerance bands are, Gold Silver None (5, 10, or 20 percent)

Nmenonic: "get some now"
 
This should not be a place where frequency response matters much. The capacitors will have little high frequency impedance, and so for any relevant high frequency they should be almost a short.

Doesn't look like you had much over-power on them, so just going up to the 47K I mentioned would be fine. And you really don't even need them , as mentioned. The only reason to keep them is if they may be disconnected, in which case they lose the discharge path.
 
Just take all those resistors off. Then mechanically crimp three of them
in series for a 45k. Use that as the bleeder resistor.
 
Just take all those resistors off. Then mechanically crimp three of them
in series for a 45k. Use that as the bleeder resistor.

Ron, I recommended individual bleeder resistors because an unterminated power capacitor invites serious injury or death. 15K 5W seems like substantial dissipation, but in the scheme of things, particularly with push-on connectors rather than bolted busbars, it's barely a drop in the bucket. Having worked with, and taught classes on traction propulsion inverters, and regularly having my hands in transmitting power supplies, and realizing that most guys who're doing these conversions are NOT experienced with the dangers of charged capacitors, I'm particularly sensitive to the casual ignorance of your suggestion. Please include your full contact information, so that when an injury or death occurs, the baliff knows where to service the subpoena.

Re. choice of resistors, the 1% spec isn't necessary, but if they were inexpensive, there's no reason NOT to use them. If they were 20%, they'd still be fine, and I'd expect them to be cheaper.

JST- the capacitance SHOULD appear as a dead short, but we're working with caps of unknown ESR, and basically a spark-gap transmitter on the other end... and the inputs of many of these machines will be contactors, so high frequency oscillations WILL appear in some circumstances. Wether the oscillations are high enough to breach a wirewound are dependant upon a myriad of circumstances, so it should be respected as a possibility. Since he's got burned resistors, and the applied voltage should NOT have been enough to burn them, that suggests one of two logical possibilities- either the resistors were weak, or voltage DID go high enough. Since many did NOT fail, that means that either some were bad, or are working under different circumstances than the others. Both are viable possibilities.
 








 
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