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Why Wye?

Ox

Diamond
Joined
Aug 27, 2002
Location
Northwest Ohio
Ran a search and came up with several OLD threads, but not much on the advantages/disadvantages of either.

One thread did mention that Delta was less stable for some reason?

I have been running phase convertors for twenty .... :scratchchin: ... mmmmm .... well, about 24 yrs now. I like having things either 240 or 480. I have used transformers back and forth either way with seemingly no differance, but I guess if you are only pulling from the three legs, it's not much different eh?

208 leaves some equipment a little thirsty.


If given a choice, what would be the best and whye?

And if gone with the other, what would be the downfalls?


Note - I have a lot of 600V, 225 and 400A, 3 wire buss line.

As I understand it - either can be taken from the utlity wires all the same?


Edit:
As per a new 600A/480V install...


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 
Delta has no neutral.

Need neutral to get 110 and 277

Comeing down the road are 4 wires phase a phase b phase c and the neutral wire.

Delta is the 3 phases

Wye is the 3 phases and the neutral
 
My understanding is that 480 is Wye only. 480 Delta is not allowed for new work.

I believe that 208 Wye is pretty much standard as well. At least in these parts, 240 Delta is rare.

You can always use a buck/boost transformer to get to 240.


480 saves on wire, 208 saves on transformers. The Japanese stuff I have seen is all 240/208. Sometimes they throw in a transformer, but it's usually still a stand alone unit.

Most larger shops use 480 Wye. They pull 277 single phase off for the lights, then use a transformer (or many) for the single phase 240 and 120 circuits. Distribution is all 480 with transformers at the machines. Usually you can pull 120 or 240 single phase off of those transformers as well for your outlets and things in that area.

The shop where I worked had 2X 1200 amps 480. They split it into 100 or 200 amp branches and distributed that throughout the shop. No buss duct or any of that, all conduit and distribution troughs.
 
I edited my original post, but I wanted to add that this would be per a new 600A / 480V install to put things in perspective.

Over half of my CNC equipment is 480 these days.
I have X's all over the place. I can about heat the joint off X's!
(some amount of sarcasm, but not as much as you may think ...)

May be running two buss lines side by side. :o

My understanding is that 480 is Wye only. 480 Delta is not allowed for new work.

Well that would certainly make the decission easier eh?


The big entrance X's that I am finding for 7000V all seem to be Y so far, so you may be on to something?



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Think Snow Eh!
Ox​
 
Ox, stay with a wye system. Delta was used in the past in large industrial complexes. Where the service came into the plants there were 6 light bulbs that were wired in a series, 2 on each phase to ground. The light bulbs were very dull glowing a mild orange because the voltage to ground was next to nothing. If a fault to ground would occur on any phase the lights would then shine brightly on the phases that were leaking to ground. This would be an alarm that an unsafe piece of equipment existed. To find out where the leak to ground was we would shut off equipment and look for the lights to go dull. Motors would run fine with a leak to ground. A phase to phase fault would overload the fuse/breaker and it would trip. In a delta system if a service conductor rubbed through the insulation it would be lost wattage as long as the lights were bright! Just think if a fault was under way and you became the path to ground from the equipment. You would be pushing roses. In a Wye system with a neutral any phase to ground would feed back to the breaker as a fault. Most feeders on a wye have ground fault protection. Doesn't exist on a delta system. Wye is safer! If the large industrial/mining complexes tried to use a wye system in days gone by a tiny leak to ground from water or dirt would stop production. As mentioned a delta is probably not even allowed in a building today. Some distribution systems still use delta out on the poles but are fading fast. Our utility does not supply a 440 delta hookup anymore, Lighting is available in 277v which is 480 volt wye to ground. You are not allowed to hook up a transformer phase to ground for stepping up or down. Only the utility can do that on the pole for your service. Other options exist to get you 120/240 single phase from the utility. One, if you ever saw three transformers on the pole with a larger one in the middle that person could have 240v three phase with 208/120 v single phase. Talk to your provider but if you have to deal with a company like ours sit down when you do call them. Best first question what is on the pole out side your place? Three wires on the pole with a neutral great start. 2 wires with a ground still possible success. One wire with a ground your screwed.
 
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Those buss lines giv all kinds of prolems I have seen a mazak tecwalk out and refuse to work on a prolem new install until they removed the buss.(and he was right removeing the buss and going to so fixed the prolem)

Slickest new installs that I have seen are so cord in raceway easy to install easy to service also.

Dont do the 277 lights the mess up your pf.
 
There is a good reason for delta if you run an RPC or Phase Perfect - the three generated legs don't have symmetric voltage about ground - you have a "wild" or "high" leg. Wye needs all legs to be the same voltage wrt ground. So you can hook up a PP or RPC directly to a delta machine, but you must use a delta-wye transformer if you have a wye machine. But for a new installation - go wye.
 
Slickest new installs that I have seen are so cord in raceway easy to install easy to service also.

What is the cost difference between SO cord and THHN in conduit? Seems like for a single run it might be a wash, but multiple branches running to same destination seems better with individual conductors. The THHN can be de-rated at the 90 degree capacity for multiple conductors in one raceway. SO would be 60 degree no matter what.

I have seen a few places where they use SO cord for all of the drops to the the machines instead of flex-tight conduit. I figured that was just electricians preference.
 
Ox please call your power company and ask if they would send a customer rep out to speak with you about this.I have been involved in the power industry for 34 years and that is definately one of the services we offer. FREE he will come in look at some name plates look at your lighting ask a few future needs questions tell you about minimum billing and give you his reccomendations. If I were to build a new shop right now and I had 3 phase primary available very near the property I would ask for and install a 120/240 3 phase open delta service period. I don't know what you have for machinery loads nor the number of employees and the big question he will try to figure out is how diverse your loads will be. which basically means how many of those motors can possibly be running at the same time. hope this helps
 
Ox please call your power company and ask if they would send a customer rep out to speak with you about this.I have been involved in the power industry for 34 years and that is definately one of the services we offer. FREE he will come in look at some name plates look at your lighting ask a few future needs questions tell you about minimum billing and give you his reccomendations. If I were to build a new shop right now and I had 3 phase primary available very near the property I would ask for and install a 120/240 3 phase open delta service period. I don't know what you have for machinery loads nor the number of employees and the big question he will try to figure out is how diverse your loads will be. which basically means how many of those motors can possibly be running at the same time. hope this helps

Even if your machines needed 480?
 
ok reread your second post OX .Do you have alot of 120 volt load? If most of your loads are 240/480 they would most likely be installing what is called a 240/480 volt 4 wire delta. with this you will need a sub panel for your 120 volt loads that is powered from a dry type transformer. 277 for lighting will be available in your main panel with this set up.
 
I'd stay away from ungrounded delta systems. That's old-school and prone to problems. Check out high resistance grounded wye. I'd elaborate, but my cell phone battery is almost dead. FWIW, it's "bus", not "buss".
 
Wye allows getting the 120 or 277, for lighting.

Ungrounded delta is OK for distribution, but for premise wiring, you must have a grounded conductor somewhere, except for special things, like an arc furnace, etc. It's an NEC requirement, in general, protecting against a breakdown of the transformer insulation that applies primary side power (4000, 7200, or higher volts) to your premis wiring. If grounded conductors exist, the fault current blows the line fuse out on the pole. If not, your whole plant is hot with 7200V or whatever, until something somewhere breaks down and arcs..... causing a heck of a fire, probably..

So.....

Easy for wye... it's the neutral.

For delta, that means corner-grounded, which is no longer used, and generally disallowed for new installs. It has some issues with fusing and breakers, generally that it is very confusing to many people, and also that it isn't easily tapped for lighting.

Many step-down transformers will be delta high side to wye low side..... that has advantages in transmission (actually non-transmission) of harmonics onto the source wiring.
 
The cost in electrical is electrician labor (not material)

The so in a raceway is the most labor efficient (no pulling wires a too short wire can be reused elsewhere.......)

The decideing factor to me has always been the sparkeys saying ''if its good enough for a drilling rig its good enough for you''
What is the cost difference between SO cord and THHN in conduit? Seems like for a single run it might be a wash, but multiple branches running to same destination seems better with individual conductors. The THHN can be de-rated at the 90 degree capacity for multiple conductors in one raceway. SO would be 60 degree no matter what.

I have seen a few places where they use SO cord for all of the drops to the the machines instead of flex-tight conduit. I figured that was just electricians preference.
 
Ox

I realize that you didn't ask but wouldn't an option that you could use be a 480 single phase service.

You would loose the x load, and would still keep the rea rate and be able to use your existing equipment (phase converters, wireing etc)

The bigest prolem that I had going from 100hp worth of converters to 480 (was forced to by an insurance inspecter and contract obligation) was the bill

caused by the demand meter and pf monitor.
 
Not looking to replace what I already have, I am looking to wire new roof.
(completely different building, and likely property)


-------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 
I'd stay away from ungrounded delta systems. That's old-school and prone to problems. Check out high resistance grounded wye. I'd elaborate, but my cell phone battery is almost dead. FWIW, it's "bus", not "buss".

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it, you're starting from scratch with a 3 phase 480 V 600 A system, and wondering if delta or wye would be better? I'll assume this is a machine shop with machine shop type loads... motors, lights, computers, etc.

First - the ungrounded delta system.

Ungrounded delta systems used to be popular in industrial facilities because it allows one leg of the delta to be grounded without causing a big explosion resulting in shutting the entire operation down. A monitoring system is employed to let maintenance personnel know when a phase goes to ground. This is usually accomplished by dim/bright lightbulbs and/or some type of annunciator. This is great if you're machine shop is churning out widgets (and consequently profit) at breakneck speed and a spindle motor or A/C compressor motor develops a short to ground. Since it's an ungrounded system, you can still run with one phase at ground potential without shutting the entire operation down. As soon as it's convenient, you can identify the location of the ground fault and repair or isolate it.

Now, the bad news.... Your voltage options are 480V, 480V, or 480V. Anything else will require transformers.

There's also a posibility of developing a pretty serious and equipment damaging overvoltage condition since the system isn't grounded. That's one of the reasons this system isn't used much anymore. It was discovered some time ago that under certain conditions (arcing ground faults if I recall correctly) the voltage can get very high with respect to ground - high enough to really screw up a lot of insulation on the system (motors, bus duct, power cable, etc).

Here's something else to consider..... Image a triangle (the delta) with a dot right in the middle of it. That dot represents ground, and the three points of the triange represent L1, L2, and L3. Take your finest ruler and measure the lenth of the three sides of the triangle. Each of those represents 480 units. If you measure from a corner to the dot you'll come up with 277 units. Because there's capacitance between the three phases and ground, the dot will remain somewhere in the middle (capacitive coupling).

With that said, if you meaure the voltage of an ungrounded 480V delta from phase to ground, it should be somewhere around 277 give or take. Now imagine the insulation in your motor windings, around your cables, and anywhere else there's insulation separating a phase conductor and ground. Under normal circumstances, that insulation will have to withstand somewhere around 277V.

Now lets ground a leg.... Remember the triangle and dot? Shift the triangle so one of the corners is on the dot. Now your phase to ground voltage just jumped up to 480V on two legs, and 0V on the other. This increased phase to ground voltage can stress insulation and cause equipment problems/failures.

The solidly grounded wye

This system is used a lot. It'll give you 480V phase to phase, and a solid 277V phase to ground. You'll obviously need a transformer for 120/240, or whatever other voltages you require, but that's no biggie.

One problem with this system is dealing with ground faults. Let's say West Unity hits 100 degrees and your roof top A/C compressor motor decides to crap out on you by developing a short to ground. Kaboooom... it's done... motor's shot and extensively damaged beyond repair... breaker's tripped... no more A/C and whatever else is on that circuit until you isolate or replace the motor and flip the breaker back on.

There's also a safety aspect of the solidy grounded wye to consider. Let's say you just hired Joe Blow, West Unity's finest and hardest working machinist apprentice. The kid's awesome... shows up to work on time, absorbs your teachings like a sponge, works his ass off. You don't want him to get blown up when he's too close to something the faults to ground.

Now on to the high resistance grounded wye

Same deal as the solidly grounded wye, but you put a resistor between the neutral and the ground.

A fault will follow the path of least resistance back to the source. In a solidly grounded wye system, if a ground fault occurs in a spindle motor, lots and lots of current will want to flow from that point back to the transformer neutral. This will mess up the motor pretty bad by letting the smoke out of it.

If you put a resistor between the transformer neutral and ground, you can limit that current to a safe value... say 5A instead of 5,000A. With some simple metering and control added to the mix you can monitor the current flowing through the resistor to tell you if a phase goes to ground. Just like the ungrounded delta, you can then pick a convenient time to track down the ground fault and fix it.

But wait... it gets better....

You can add a pulsing circuit to change the resistance value up and down. This will allow you to track down the location of the ground fault with a clamp-on ammeter so you don't have to shut breakers off one at a time to see when the ground goes away.


Anyway...

I think a high resistance grounded wye is ideal for a machine shop. It adds safety and reliablitly and doesn't cost much. It can also be added to an existing wye. SWMBO is wanting me to come to bed. gotta go. Thanks for hangin' in there 'till the end of this longwinded post. I tend to type a lot after just a couple beers.
 








 
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