W & S #4 worth buying

Bill Kerns · Feb 9, 2015

I'm looking at a W & S #4 model # 1420. It's been sitting out side for apparently a long time. This is in so Cal so it could be worse, but some things are frozen, mainly the shift lever and the spindle, but that could have to do with shift mechanism. It has a 12" scroll chuck that is a power wrench type, but no power wrench on the machine. No motor. A little tooling on the turret. It's rusty of course, but mostly there and not busted up. It also has the pre-selector gear change It's close by my place, and I wouldn't pay any more then scrap for it. Is it worth pursuing? thanks, Bill

4GSR · Feb 14, 2015

A friend of mine gave me a old No. 3 for free. Same situation as the one you are looking at. Once I had it and started to mess with trying to dismantle, the worse it got. Everything was frozen up with rust and crud. It had the original two speed motor, but was disconnected and another motor added for a more direct drive to the spindle. Anyways, after a couple look overs, it went to the dumpster!

oldster · Feb 14, 2015

These were awesome machines in their day. I rebuilt a #3 from the ground up several years ago in homage to my mom, who operated one in Long Beach during WW2.
They were the final flowering of the "doing it all mechanically" mind set that ended with the advent of nc. Absolutely a marvel of engineering and high production. Only the fact that they required a "hands on" operator to drive them led to their demise.

Unless you are prepared to spend an ungodly amount of time and money, it is not likely your purchase will ever make chips again. If you value taking on a project of this nature, more power to you.

Lee (the saw guy)

Bill Kerns · Feb 14, 2015

I've done a few similar projects in the past, however this is a big project. It doesn't look busted up externally, but the big question mark is how is the headstock internally. The cross slide does move and so does the ram. However if the headstock is too bad to fix, then it would be scrap. I look at these kind of machines as a symbol of out industrial might here in the past. Judging by the plates on the headstock, it was sold in England at sometime in it's past, and somehow ended up in southern calif.

This could prove to be a foolish exercise, and besides I don't know yet what the owner wants for it. For my sake maybe he'll want too much. Thanks for your opinions, Bill

Mud · Feb 14, 2015

You can get running machines for scrap price east of the Mississippi, don't know what the availability is in CA. I'd say any more than $50 delivered to your shop is too much. This is from someone who likes these machines and has redone a nice one.

Bill Kerns · Feb 15, 2015

Mud said:
You can get running machines for scrap price east of the Mississippi, don't know what the availability is in CA. I'd say any more than $50 delivered to your shop is too much. This is from someone who likes these machines and has redone a nice one.

Unfortunately that's not the case here. I looked in CL last night and a W&S #4 square head is for sale. It's sitting outside, has a little rust on it, and the guy wants $3500 for it. Even if he'd take less it's still a lot more then I want to spend. I guess if I was lucky I could find something like you're talking about. Just don't seem to be common here like in the east.

I really don't know why they're so scarce here, but apparently rarity makes for higher prices. They're not cheap on ebay either, but that is pretty meaningless since they don't sell many of them anyway. At least not at the prices being asked. Of course CL sellers here probably look at the asking prices on ebay a figure that's what they're worth. thanks, Bill

Steve's Hobby · Feb 15, 2015

Bill Kerns said:
Unfortunately that's not the case here. I looked in CL last night and a W&S #4 square head is for sale. It's sitting outside, has a little rust on it, and the guy wants $3500 for it. Even if he'd take less it's still a lot more then I want to spend. I guess if I was lucky I could find something like you're talking about. Just don't seem to be common here like in the east.

I really don't know why they're so scarce here, but apparently rarity makes for higher prices. They're not cheap on ebay either, but that is pretty meaningless since they don't sell many of them anyway. At least not at the prices being asked. Of course CL sellers here probably look at the asking prices on ebay a figure that's what they're worth. thanks, Bill

If you have a use for one, they are great machines, I would pass on one sitting outside for 3500, more like 500 at the most, keep in mind they were run and run some more, generally, in Southern Cal, quite a few come up at auctions, which if the price is right are ok, I have a #3 with the lead on attachment which is the ticket for threading with a die head, I would like to get another one, but... I would recommend you talk to Greg at Ghar Machinery in Ohio, he has some nice machines, and I have had good experience with them, he seems to sell good machines, for a few bucks more, with shipping you will get something that you can start making parts right away.

Bill Kerns · Feb 15, 2015

Steve's Hobby said:
If you have a use for one, they are great machines, I would pass on one sitting outside for 3500, more like 500 at the most, keep in mind they were run and run some more, generally, in Southern Cal, quite a few come up at auctions, which if the price is right are ok, I have a #3 with the lead on attachment which is the ticket for threading with a die head, I would like to get another one, but... I would recommend you talk to Greg at Ghar Machinery in Ohio, he has some nice machines, and I have had good experience with them, he seems to sell good machines, for a few bucks more, with shipping you will get something that you can start making parts right away.

The $3500 lathe isn't on my list, just trying to show the kind of prices you find on machines like this in CL. I'm sure you're right about getting them a lot cheaper at an auction. Like I said, this lathe I'm looking at will have to be around scrap price before I would buy. I might give a little more for the 12" chuck and any tooling because they do have some value separately. I've really only started to look so maybe something better might show up. Ideally I think a #3 would be a better size for me if I can find one. thanks

Bill Kerns · Feb 20, 2015

Well, the lathe issue has resolved itself. The owner came up with a price about 3 times higher than I would have paid. Too far apart for negotiation. I think he's basically a hoarder, that will sell if he gets a bunch of money for his rusty stuff. thanks for your comments, bill

amdinc · Feb 20, 2015

Bill Kerns said:
Well, the lathe issue has resolved itself. The owner came up with a price about 3 times higher than I would have paid. Too far apart for negotiation. I think he's basically a hoarder, that will sell if he gets a bunch of money for his rusty stuff. thanks for your comments, bill

These machines come up for auction every once in a while. Usually you are bidding against the scrap dealer at 7 cents a pound.

John

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