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Advice on selection of wood, or finding the woodworking equivalent of this website?

adammil1

Titanium
Joined
Mar 12, 2001
Location
New Haven, CT
I was wondering in looking at woodworking forums I am trying to figure out which is the closest equivalent to this one when it comes to being able to ask very broad questions and pull on knowledge from a very seasoned crowd of individuals. In searching the web I have found that there are about 10-15X the amount of woodworking forums as there are metal working. So can anyone recommend a good one?

With that being said maybe I should also ask the question here. I am looking to replace some windows made 100yrs ago off the side of an railroad old passenger car. The original windows were made of a very hard mahogany that probably isn't in existence anymore. Today, I would like to make some replacements of them and have started pricing out some of the wood and it is really expensive and unclear if I will even be getting a mahogany hard enough to go up and down many times inside of a metal frame with out getting too banged up over time. Can anyone recommend a wood that will be strong, and not rot out in the next 50-100years of outdoor service?

The other interesting thing, is I found outstanding prices on mahogany hardwood flooring which I would hope to be some of the harder mahogany species out there far lower than you can buy it by the board at an exotic lumber supply, but at the same time they come in all random lengths so that makes it too difficult to use, unless there is a guaranteed minimum length that they can put in the box.

So anyone have any recommendations on either what wood to use, or a better forum to find an answer on? I would even be willing to experiment with a plastic wood if someone knows of a good one.
 
Most wood sash are made of white pine. It's a workable, stable wood. If you keep the sash painted, there should be no problem with longevity. Are they double-hung sash? You can find plastic channels for them to run in.

I suspect you can find a millwork shop that makes replacement sash, probably cheaper than you can do it yourself. When I worked in lumberyards in Baltimore, 20 years ago, there were three shops that did it. Go to a real lumberyard, not a big box.
 
Is your main requirement historical accuracy, durability, or appearance?

If durability is the main thing, consider white oak. As already mentioned, weather-resistant sashes are most often made of softer woods, including pine and cedar. If you want weather-resistance and hard (also heavy!), try white oak. (Red oak is not the same thing at all.) Paint is essential for long life in exterior applications.
 
None of the comments so far apply to traditional railroad car building. Traditional woods for sash were Honduras Mahogany and Cherry, picked more for the color than weather resistance, although Honduras Mahogany happens to be a very rot resistant wood. Softwoods were simply never used for railroad car millwork, they have neither the strength or wear resistance. Oak would work, and some cars did use quarter sawn White Oak for sash and interior finish, but Oak was considered an inferior wood, only suitable for smoker compartments and second class accommodations.

A couple of questions. What is the scope of the project? Is this a historical restoration, or new windows for the Toonerville Wild West Train?

If this is a historical restoration, it really behooves you to determine what species the originals are before you do anything. The same species, or as close as can be had today should be used for repair and replacement.Whether historical or not, you might want to consider repairing the existing. Sash usually deteriorate at the bottom corners first, as water infiltrates the mortise and tenon joints and fungus destroys the hide glue they were built with. Often with the glass removed and paint stripped, they can be "consolidated" with one of the wood repair epoxy products made for the wood boat restoration market... West System is a well known name. Missing material on surfaces that will be painted can be filled with one of the compatible epoxy wood putties, while the side that will be varnished can have patches of material salvaged from an extra sash let in. Since the epoxy becomes a structural component in a way that hide glue never was, the joinery doesn't even have to be particularly tight to be effective. Where do you find an extra sash? Pick the worst one or two and build new replacements with the correct (expensive) material, then use the good portions of those as donor material for the rest.

As you've discovered, good material is difficult to obtain, and pricey. I recall discussing a boxcar re-siding project with the folks at the Strasburg Railroad. They had a wood sheathed car that serves as a atmosphere piece, which means it is always going to be outside, so they decided to spend the money for siding that would not split, cup, rot, and hold its paint. They had the siding, which was likely originally either Douglas Fir or Southern Yellow Pine custom milled from Honduras Mahogany. The material bill, IIRC, was $18K.

Speaking of which, one useful place to post your question might be the Interchange board on the Railway Preservation News web site. Lots of talkers, but there are some people who deal with this sort of thing on a regular basis.

Dennis
 
, or a better forum to find an answer on? I would even be willing to experiment with a plastic wood if someone knows of a good one.
Far as I know, Woodweb.com is about as close to the PM equivalent in wood. But their forums are not very user friendly and therefore not active, such that you might get more good answers here than there, even on woodworking discussions.
 
What about IPE, it is a type of mahogany. We used to use it for wood decks down the shore. It used to be comparable in price to SYP pressure treated and cheaper than redwood. Very hard, used to pre drill for screws. Try larger lumberyards
 
You asked about woodworking forums. Here's my opinion as a professional woodworker:
Woodweb has been mentioned, and I also think that it is the closest equivalent to this site.It's not THAT user-unfriendly, but you might have to wait a few days for an answer to your questions.You don't have to register to use the site.For practical information, and people who know, and have done, woodworking, it's the best.
Woodnet is also helpful, as is Sawmill Creek.You do have to register to use , but not to read, both sites.
I would avoid the Fine Woodworking "Knots" forum.Most of the knowledgeable people who used to post there left a long time ago. However, the Fine Homebuilding "Breaktime" forum might be worth visiting.
I think you're on the right track in searching for a hard mahogany, if that's what the originals were. However, I don't think that the mahogany flooring you mentioned would work, unless you can be sure of the exact species and hardness.
Rick W
 
What about IPE, it is a type of mahogany.
Ipê is a great weather-resistant wood, but it's not a mahogany either botanically or by appearance. It is indeed very hard, almost feels like it's been pressure impregnated with plastic. It's so dense that it sinks rather than floats. (That's a major reason it's weather-resistant.) Still used for decking, indeed, but the last time I looked the price was premium.
 
Adam,

Sapele is the best substitute I have found for Honduras Mahogany. Hard and durable with a very similar look at a reasonable price.

Even the genuine mahogany you can buy is no longer Honduran. It is softer and the quality has sunk.

The flooring and decking species is normally Philippine Mahogany which is not always well dried and is kinda ugly.

How much are you looking for?

Pete
 
You asked about woodworking forums. Here's my opinion as a professional woodworker:
Woodweb has been mentioned, and I also think that it is the closest equivalent to this site.It's not THAT user-unfriendly,
Are you kidding me ??

1. No after post editing capability
2. No quoting capability
3. No moving old threads to the top with new responses
4. No emoticons
5. No requirement to display where on the planet Earth any member is located

There's probably more I'm forgetting, but that's enough right there to make it about as user unfriendly as you can get. No. 3 is the most ridiculous issue.
 
Another vote here for Sapele. I have been using it instead of mahogany for patterns partly because it is half the cost but also because I have found it to be more stable than a lot of the genuine mahogany available today. It is a little harder than some genuine mahogany and a lot harder than some of the softer mahogany. It looks very similar to Mahogany. Don't buy "African Mahogany" it often moves a lot when you cut it and can be terrible to finish. You end up with a "fuzzy" surface that can be hard to get rid of.
 
Another vote here for Sapele. I have been using it instead of mahogany for patterns partly because it is half the cost but also because I have found it to be more stable than a lot of the genuine mahogany available today. It is a little harder than some genuine mahogany and a lot harder than some of the softer mahogany. It looks very similar to Mahogany. Don't buy "African Mahogany" it often moves a lot when you cut it and can be terrible to finish. You end up with a "fuzzy" surface that can be hard to get rid of.

I second this -they will call the "African Mahogany " Kiyah" or something like that, not sure of the spelling. It is a twistathon. Sapele is pretty dang good- not as nice as the old Honduran or Cuban mahogany but you can at least find it. And the planks are big and clear.
 
I just happen to have a couple of 9/4 S2S Honduras mahogany planks, clear, non-figured; swietenia macrophylla, the actual stuff. One is 22" wide x 8ft long the other 20" wide x 10 ft. Thereabouts. I've had them for maybe 20 years. Heavy as hell. I could hardly rassle the 10 footer up a ladder to the rack.

Honduras mahogany seems to be readily available on the lumber sites for ~$15/bf with a premium for thicknesses and wide boards. Whether its weenie wood compared to old growth, I don't know but I've always thought Honduras mahogany (upland grown) came from a tree that grows dense and stout whether in the wild or coddled in a managed forest.
 
The orginal poster, looking for a woodworking website with knowledge about restoring railway passenger cars, should join owwm.org and post in the woodworking forum with his questions and specifically ask "trolleycar" to respond. "trolleycar" has restored and directed the restoration of many passenger cars at the Illinois Railway Museum. Several PracticalMachinist members are also OWWM members. I, and others, have visited the shops at the Illinois Railway Museum where the restoration group uses orginal woodworking machines to make the restoration parts.
Bruce
 
Adam-

I've made my share of windows and doors in various types of wood. I do like mahogany. In this case the window is a replacement for the original white pine unit which rotted out to pulp after ~125 years or so.

smt-router-copetooling10.jpg


Not only is the kind of wood important, but the original maker would have also _selected_ the wood from a pile, and from an individual board for various parts of the window. Car work was production work, so even if you were a "fly on the wall" it would have been relatively un-obvious to you how fast but how diligent his selective faculties were working. IOW, it is not uncommon that one side of a 12" wide board would be perfect for a rail, stile, or muntin, but the other edge would be a bad choice, just based on grain run-out and configuration. The "best" configurations went into the longest parts, the next best into shorter parts, and in those parts there might have been subtle choices for the parts that were supported, hinged, or locked, compared to those that were always dependent on their own support. The hinge stile, vs the lock stile on a door. The check rail vs the sill rail on a window, etc, etc. Even if you pick up an apparently "nice" big knot free board, the grain configuration may make it, or some parts of it, an unsuitable choice for some parts of functional millwork such as doors or windows with outdoor exposure.

Mahogany, as others have noted, is "variable" these days. There is good stuff out there, though. If you are paying for Mahogany, make sure it is true Swietenia, though, nothing else. Swietenia Mahoghani is a tougher/harder wood, but really difficult and somewhat expensive to source. It can occasionally become available after a hurricane in Florida. Using it for car windows might not be the best option, these days. But it can be had. More common is "honduran" mahogany, though I believe it mostly comes from Peru now. The Peruvian boards tend to be fairly light both in color and weight and not always quite what the old stuff was. If you can go somewhere that selecting is possible, there is often still good stuff of similar quality, though.

A not inexpensive source for mahogany is Lou Irion, you can have a lot of input into what you are buying or even og a nd personally select it, and there will be essentially no waste. They don't sell bad lumber. In those terms, the price is fair, and I buy from them when I want something specific. I'm spoiled by past access to another vendor who sources the same place he does, but does not select as well, though.

Irion Lumber Company Home

For good substitutes, Ipe will work and may be better for your app, it is very hard. However there are at least 3 different species of tree mixed together and sold as "Ipe" for commercial work. Also, the deck stuff is not kiln dried, or when it is, it is often not dry enough to use for millwork (windows) So if you can get some good KD ipe with straight grain, it should work well for frames. I would be leery of using it for muntins, but can't imagine that being something used in car work. (unless it was leaded muntins)

Another that might make good frames so long as it is KD and straight grain would be "Santos" "mahogany". Not a mahogany at all, but it is a reasonably priced wood that is hard and durable. Again, select for straight grain pieces that are already straight and flat in the rough. The red/purplish stuff seems "better" to me than the orange, or the brown stuff sold under the same name. YMMV

I love QS white oak, but would not use it for sash. It is durable but does not weather well. Warps and gets quite gnarly raised grain with weather exposure.

Cherry is actually a pretty good reasonably rot resistant wood & relatively stable, if you absolutely do not include any sapwood whatsoever. I do not know if it is hard enough for you application. But so long as straight grain, sapwood free pieces are used, it is not a bad choice. Another issue with Cherry can be gum pockets. I would not be inclined to include these because they can exude and interfere with finish. If you get a load with a lot of gum pockets your waste factor can be high for millwork.

BTW, re: substitutions - I've had old work samples evaluated by the Forest Products lab for historic replication, and even in the "good old days" commercial substitution for "similar appearance" woods was not unknown, lol.

BTW#2: A little appreciated wood for exterior exposure is black walnut. It is stabel and quite rot resistant (as long as it is not steamed and no sap wood is present). In colonial times it was used for window parts, expecially sills against masonary due to rot resistance. It may be on the soft side for your app, and IMO would probably be too dark and the grain would read wrong, though.

smt
 








 
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