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Anyone here hammer veneer?

I didn't get a lot of support on OWWM, and kind of expect less, here, but you never know. There's a lot of really professionally talented people here who don't say much. :)

I'm re-attaching loose 2 ply veneers "everywhere" on a factory piece made ca. 1926. I'm hammer veneering it with hot hide glue, because that system is simple, elegant, and there's really no better method for veneers that were originally laminated with hot hide glue; especially if the only way to get glue into extensive areas is a small slit. When posted on OWWM i had Q's, but have since essentially worked them out, so this is intended as discussion. But advice welcome if you actually have some deep experience. Anyone else still use the process?

smt
 
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I have no useful experience to share (hammered one piece to try out learned-from-book technique back in the 80's when I was still wood-working actively) but would also like to hear more.
 
I have, but not extensively. Took a class on it 20 years ago, and used it in my work for a while, but not extensively. Works great, but vac bag ended up being more practical for the work I was doing (bookmatched cabinet doors) as I don't do repair work if I can avoid it.....which is NEVER, these days.

I, too , was using hot hide glue.
 
I've tried to fast forward through some of his vids, but they don't really "grab" me. :)

There are a number of youtube videos by more or less competent people doing hammer veneering, but Barry Lorimer seems to be the only one who was trained and used it as a productive, matter of course, trade. Competence plus speed & efficiency! Studying his videos, it occurred to me that part of my problem is i am not willing to get the veneers as soaking wet as he does! When he is done with a veneer (before applying it) it is a totally limp, submissive, and more or less flat piece of very damp wood.

Basically, I had (in the past) been trying to work too fast. For repair areas, it's difficult to really soak the veneer - especially 2 ply faces - it can end up delaminating those, and causing further problems besides the one of getting partially swollen/partially attached faces back in the same space they delaminated from. I found that getting an area really full of glue, squeegeeing it around to all the loose area, but not really squeegeeing it out, and letting it gel up, helped re-hydrate the wood,while decreasing the moisture in the glue. Then after maybe working the glue into another area to let that cool, come back to the first area, iron it until the glue runs like water, and go ahead and squeegee ("hammer") it out the seams and edges.

Glue on the face helps 2 ways on original work: equalizes the MC on both sides allowing the veneer to lay flatter; and seals the pores so the vacuum can take hold. Hammer veneering is actually the original "vacuum veneering" process. By squeegeeing the glue and air out from the center, a solid vacuum is induced so long as the edges can be held down. In original work, this is done by equalizing the faces and using whatever means necessary to make the veneer limp and flat including essentially steaming it. In repair work of extensive areas, I find I can easily hammer down the "inaccessible" areas, but sometimes need to add a caul along an edge.

smt
 
Stephen, you mention “steaming” in affect but do you have any way to experiment with actual steam in the process? I have an inexpensive (as seen on tv I hate to say) steamer my wife insisted on buying. It works remarkably well in making steam and I have used it to raise bruises on wood, steam wrinkles from new upholstery and headliners in the Chevy shop and clean an abused Viking range top. It was also happy to assist in defrosting an old freezer that wasn’t frost free. I wonder if steam may be effictive in pre conditioning the repair zone and allow easier manipulation of the veneer.
Just spitballing here, no real world experience to apply but seemed to be a possibility. The appliance came with various nozzles and defusers to limit or direct the steam.
Joe
 
Joe -

I've been steaming dents for decades with a household iron. I don't put water in it,but use wet rags and iron through them to focus the steam on the dent. On some deep dents, a couple steps, maybe a day apart, can be effective. I've been using the iron on the veneer repairs, though not saturating them as Barry does. I'm also being somewhat circumspect about specifically steaming dents through the veneers in areas that are sound/will not need reglued, so as not to cause delamination.

Your idea of a steamer, or apparently some guys use a heat gun, could be useful if it does not delaminate other areas. I am comfortable with the iron as being familiar. It can be set low enough so there's little risk of singing the wood, and to add pressure on pesky areas without squeezing all the glue out. You steamer idea, of course, would also limit the heat to a low temp that would be gentle to the substrate.

smt
 
I used it in a situation where vacuum and clamps were'nt possible. A circular table apron which also had a cove. Difficult but can be done. I used a 4" by 18" silicon blanket, cauls I made into the correct shape by using bondo and 3/16" thick neoprene rubber.

Proceeded 6" at a time for a 68" ellipitical table apron.Veneer doesn't mind one angle but is difficult with a compound angle.
 
RGL - that makes perfect sense. It is quite difficult to bend wood that has not been softened into 3D contours. Softening by steam or dry heat; somewhat by dampening; or by traditional methods such as hammer veneering prep and practice which includes the above; or perhaps by pre-glue-sizing with glycerin; or with modern methods such as ammonia, which is deadly poisonous in an open shop.

It occurs to me that all those antique veneered compound surfaces like bombe chests included burl veneers for the spectacular appearance - but also for the practical fact that burl does not have a grain bias as to which direction it bends, stretches, or compresses as does "milder" wood with straight grain & can more readily be compelled to do all of that at once even in small areas with significant transitions.

smt
 
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I've been remiss following up, as this is a side project and I didn't know which direction it would go.
Here are some photos from May with initial work consolidating loose veneer. I had to stop to develop methods and tools for later repairs so as to inform how extensive to get with the consolidation. In fact, I'm going to have to make at least one sketch face new. But besides that, I've figured a method sympathetci to the original work to avoid veneer patching corners, especially the rounded worn areas at all the bottoms of all the feet. More on that in future.

Hmmm.... this new software has a small learning curve...not sure how to intersperse pics with text as previously, at least these are simple.

First shows the typical damage, which is difficult to repair and apt to be not-thorough with modern adhesives which set too fast and are difficult to get in "everywhere", to clamp effectively, or to consolidate the old glue.

Next, the hot glue has been shoveled in, squeegeed a bit to spread it, but left to gel. Then reheated with an iron until it runs like water (still in the 140°F range, not really "hot") and re-squeegeed right out in all directions and then back out the top. The veneer has stuck down flat, and there is a pool of slightly gelled glue to be wiped off outside.

Next photos show a smaller repair along the same edge. The veneer was kinked here; but laid down flat after the first gel and re-heat. I found that trying to stick the veneer with the first infusion of glue was counter productive. It just squeezed all the glue out without sticking. if the glue was run around until it gelled, then reheated and squeeged, it seemed to get time to soften the old work a bit, and to lose some of the moisture to the substrates. Then it stuck down fairly easily after being ironed back to liquid consistency and squeegeed down hard.

Last photo is of how what would have been an easy initial repair with hot hide glue, ended up ruining the face when someone attempted to stick it down with modern adhesive. Granted, the perp was manifestly unskilled. But the substance (whatever non-hide glue was used) itself is difficult to use to bond thoroughly, leads to bumps with cause future damage, and with less thorough bonding can lead the de-lamination to grow through stress and flexing.

smt
 

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Using the iron & some steam from a damp rag to soften the existing glue, i removed the mutilated 2 ply sketch face.

My initial intent was to paste paper on the front with wheat paste, steam the back off, repair the face, and re-attach it to a new backer. But the nature of the damage and the fact that more veneer and stringing will be needed in other areas caused me to decide that effort was not worth the result (always obvious repair line), and more work than starting over new, given aforesaid need for other veneer anyway.

Next to sort through the lumber pile for possible figure and color matches for veneer.

Last pic is of a complete inlay. Satinwood & ebony. Note that the decorative stringing is unfortunately (for me) in two sizes. The handle of the toilet plunger shape (wonder what that is about? :) ) is almost 1/8" narrower than the horizontal band across the bottom and everywhere else.

smt
 

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At this point i abandoned working on repairs in order to develop an inventory of supplies (veneers).

1.)First pic is blanks for resawing, including poplar cross-band/backer material.

2.) resawing.

3.) the result, including satinwood. PM'r Richard Newman "loaned" me some satinwood turning squares with the understanding i would use only what was needed and keep track for the future invoice. The "easy" thing about squares is they can be oriented to get the grain configuration needed. However, they were narrow (2") for the use,......

4.) so they were slip matched (& one book match "just in case") to get the necessary width.

5.) all the veneers for the flat work.

Original face veneer is about .030" thick. So these were sanded to .035 thick. Original poplar cross band is .050" thick, new was made the same.

smt
 

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looking at the ribbon fold strings, the white edges of the "ribbon" are made of 3 layers of "whitish" wood.
For the wide strings, 3 layers each side of about .035 thick veneers. For the stem of the toilet bowl plunger, about .025" thick.

(see first photo)

I asked Bill Thomas (here & OWWM) if he thought they were holly, since i have quite a bit. He pointed out that it was not as white as holly, and had speckles showing; while holly is completely bland. I decided not to investigate further, and made veneer stacks consisting of practically plain (unfigured) hard maple on the outsides, and a strip of birdseye maple in the middle, to get a slight bit of subtle contrast. (so 3 layers showed, and didn't look like one piece)

This was a simple resaw job, sand the veneers, and glue up the stacks at once with plastic between. Throughout this process i used machine tables for the flat pressing surface.

{photo 2)

Out of the clamps, photo 3

As mentioned, the satiwood was available in 2 x 2 turning squares. So to make the cores, i first cut end grain squares like the 2 loose ones shown between the glued blanks, and glued up single strips of 7 squares long. These were then resawn and matched side to side, to yield the 2 x 7 matrix blanks shown in photo 4


Then these were further resawn (photo 5) and matched end to end again.

smt
 

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Photos 1 & 2 - end match and glue up of the satinwood cores. These are 2 different thicknesses, for the 2 different width ribbons

photo 3 - showing the construction with the triple maple layers on each side, satinwood end-wise between.

photo 4 - after the glue set, i sawed a strip off each piece, just in case it proves useful somewhere in future for a detail or accent.

The blocks should make quite a bit more stringing than necessary for this table. However, it is difficult to make it in much smaller batches. Three considerations drive the size/quantity; two are opposing. :) 1.) the parts have to be safe to keep running through the wide-belt sander so at least a ft long. 2.) once committed to doing all the operations to make any small amount, it takes very little effort to make a larger amount. 3.) however, at a certain point one becomes squeamish about sawing up yet more ebony or satinwood. :toetap:

In a later post, I get in trouble taking point 3 too far toward the conservative side.:bawling:

smt
 

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Hijack!
This was between the veneer photos.
Last Saturday, the machinist group i've mentioned from time to time had scheduled a tour of workshops at the Glenn Curtiss museum in Hammondsport. At least one of our members volunteers there, and they maybe hoped for a few more.

The P40 was literally drug out of a swamp, and is being rebuilt for static display.

Starting the re-direct back to woodwork, the replica of a very early wooden Curtiss glider will be flown.

smt
 

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Photo 1 - sawing up the sandwiches to get lozenge and square.

photo 2 - dry assembling the parts.

This is where trying to conserve material ended being a poor judgement call that cost a lot of effort.
There should have been one more satinwood sandwich, further veneered with ebony on each side, to get the ebony triangles-on-satin-squares between the all satin lozenges. But in 2 sizes, and long enough to go through the widebelt sander, it was just a lot more material than warranted. So i elected to saw ebony triangles and glue as a separate assembly. It worked, but it is very hard to stabilize thin rim blades to saw ebony, a lot were lost or damaged. Still a small amount of material, just a lot of extra work.
 

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2 sizes (widths) cores. The short skinny one is just over 14" long, the longer fatter one is a bit less than 20"L

2nd photo, comparison with original sizes. The cores were sanded parallel, to match points, and to size.

3rd photo - :bawling: it's always somewhat painfull to saw up a relatively large stick of *ebony. As with most, it was a case of finding the best match for dimensional need, in between checks and cracks in the board.

4.) clamping again, always clamping.

5.) this is about it for a while. The outside layers of ebony on the thinner stick can be sanded a bit thinner yet. They may even be slightly tapered toward the top of the "stem". The larger stick for the more prevalent stringings on the table may need one side thinned. I have to be careful here; but most of the originals have the bottom oriented outer ebony band a bit thicker than the top band. It will probably be safest to make them all the same, and then tailor the thicknesses to individual installation sites on the table.

This is my wife's project, and I have to let it go for a bit. When it comes up again, I'll be back to the title description of (mostly) hammer veneering. :)

*sawing up ebony - I'm not even 100% sure the original black wood is all ebony. It is a very dense hard wood with perfect match for ebony grain; but a lot of it may be a lesser wood dyed. It may also be ebony, but not Gaboon ebony, dyed to even the tones in a lighter ebony wood. Unfortunately, in replicating it, i don't have the facility to find a similar match efficiently, nor the extra time to dye and dry it. So depleted stocks of the real stuff here as it gets more difficult to source.

smt
 

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Next photos show a smaller repair along the same edge. The veneer was kinked here; but laid down flat after the first gel and re-heat. I found that trying to stick the veneer with the first infusion of glue was counter productive. It just squeezed all the glue out without sticking. if the glue was run around until it gelled, then reheated and squeeged, it seemed to get time to soften the old work a bit, and to lose some of the moisture to the substrates. Then it stuck down fairly easily after being ironed back to liquid consistency and squeegeed down hard.

Not sure I'm clear on this Stephen. Are you doing the "hot iron and hammer squeegee process" twice?
 
Richard -

I didn't try the whole edge in one go, if that is what you mean, due to how the veneer was separated.

If you mean my now "standard process" :) It is 1.) fill up the repair area with glue, shoveling it in copiously. 2.) squeegee it around to spread it to the extremes as it gels, but do not try to stick it down. By the time it is spread it will be gelled and non-sticky in many areas anyway. 3.) let rest while working elsewhere. 4.) reheat (my preference, a regular laundry type iron). This gets the glue and the substrates warm. 4.) when the glue is running out the edges or slit like water & is all sticky again, hammer it down.

The gel period and reheat seems to accomplish several things. 1.)glue loses some moisture to the substrate making the substrate more flexible and chemically active, while thickening the glue slightly. 2.) more uniformly heats the glue and substrate, keeping it all stickier for longer. As someone else noted, when the glue begins to gel, it loses stickiness. This is the problem with doing a repair in one step; though others may have success with pre-heating the wood. I tend to think having a fairly thick layer of glue in the sandwich helps heat transfer: it's like heating a rag to transfer heat from a container of boiling water - the rag acts as an insulator. Add water directly to the same rag, and suddenly it will promptly scald your hand. heat transfer is better and the gradient more uniform with some thick glue between the surfaces.

At least that is my current theory. :)

smt
 








 
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