Freedom Machine tool routers

I am looking at getting another CNC router as there are times a second machine would be nice to get jobs done faster more importantly I cannot afford a breakdown and have had a couple of breakdowns over the years and been down for days or one time 2 weeks.

I would love to go 5 axis but that is a huge jump in price and would require expensive new software learning 5 axis programming etc. I have started looking at the Freedom machine tool routers. Pricing looks reasonable Fagor controller vs windows based on many others and ball screws on all axis. 15" z available which is good enough if I am going 3 axis and it looks like a decent machine.

Does anyone have any experience with them or DMS who is their parent company?

Dunno anything about cnc routers nor what might suit your needs.

But there are a number of large routers (Onsrud), couple Komo twin tables and some various others and point to points coming up on the IRS auction site ("Industrial Recovery Services" not the tax guys) in MI & MO in December.

smt

+1 for Onsrud and Komo as SMT said. I personally know one of the guys who flies all over the country to do Komo tech services, he's brilliant, and knows his stuff. Please keep us updated as to what you end up deciding on. What brand/size do you use currently in the shop?

I have a customer with 2 Komos. They seem like decent machines. All Fanuc drives and controls. Lot's of pneumatic stuff, but that seems to be how they are all made.

I have sent a request for info to Komo and will do Onsrud soon. The Freedom machine seems to have a better price than a lot of other machines that are all ball screws and a higher z.

My current machine is a chinese machine that does have ball screws on all the axis with a good spindle. The controller has been OK but it could be faster. I have had some problems with the drives. Z is only 10" which has worked but has caused some struggles. The current table/travel is 98"x55" I am thinking 5'x10' for a new machine although if the right 4x8 came up at the right price came up I would buy it. I have had and quoted jobs too big for the current machine but often they would be too big for 5x10 as well so they have to be built in pieces.

I worry a little about the logistics of buying a machine at auction in the US a long way away when I am in Canada. If it was Buffalo or Rochester I might be more inclined to consider it. Also buying a machine at auction sight unseen makes me nervous. I did just bid on a couple of machines locally that were not bad, but they were 16 years old did not have any higher Z. They were also Italian machines that I was not sure there was great local service for. Rigging for both of those machines was going to be $3500 just to disconnect and load them, with a distant auction in another country I could potentially see a lot of the potential savings of buying at auction being eaten up.

A friend of mine here locally has a pair of the DMS 5 axis machines he had built custom for his pattern work. He had Motionmasters before that and had them rebuilt with a new control on them and ran them a few years then got the new DMS'. As far as I know he has been happy with them. I do not know anything about the Freedom brand.

I personally have ran (alot) Komo, CR Onsrud, Busellato and some other non router cnc's. I have spent the most time with the older generation Komo as that is what I have now and also started on way back when. I do not know their new ones well enough to give any pros or cons. I know they went through ownership changes awhile back and sent the manufacturing overseas for a bit and customers didn't want them, so I think they are building here in the US again. Used to be in MN, now I think in NJ.

At my old job I bought a brand new 2007 CR Onsrud 4 axis fixed bridge. I really liked it, it was 5x12 with split tables and 14" Z. My only beef with that machine was I was comparing it to the old Komo. The Komo had a Fanuc control on it and was extremely reliable and worked everytime. It had no memory and at the time I had trouble doing large programs. Now I am confident it was a software glitch as I can drip feed a huge program on my machine which is the same control. It is not the same as that Onsrud, but it does a good job for me.
With that said, I had 2 Onsruds there, a 5 axis and the 4 axis. Both were the Osai control with the windows up front. The control was/is very powerful but it was built on a PC and so I had issues with it. Not often, but in my opinion too often for a machine that cost that much. I have not paid attention to new machines or their offerings for 5 years now as I can't afford any. If I recall Onsrud was/is building machines with Fanuc controls now. I would think that would be the best thing going. I have had a bunch of machines in my stewardship with PC controls and they all screwed me more than once from failing or even just booting up wacky. One Busellato would randomly boot up in Italian, once we figured out how to switch it back it wasn't as big a deal, but it did require some time and a restart.

The Onsrud with the Osai had a touch screen monitor/control on both machines and on both machines they went out more than once. Not bad except the monitor was integral with the PC itself and that was proprietary. It was a ton of money to get it replaced and if I recall the guys after me had the same issues with them after I left. I'd be open to one with a Fanuc on it, but not an Osai.

I'd be looking at used just to see what is out there. As for needing 5 axis software, you can get a machine and use it as a 3 axis with alot of Z. Many times that is what I am limited to is height vs needing 5 axis capability. The Motionmasters had a Fagor on them and I have seen them sell pretty cheap. My buddy's both had 48" Z, so you would need a high ceiling to go with it.

You can also do 3+2 programming which is considerably simpler to get going on and software should be cheaper. Essentially you just create a new work plane and just use all the 3 axis programming tools and methods on that new plane. Makes it easy.

Funny you mention the monitor going out on the Osai controller. The 2 machines I looked at and bid on locally were Cosmecs with Osai controllers. Both of them had a non flat screen monitor fastened on top to replace a bad monitor.

Looks like Onsrud offers both Osai and Fanuc controllers.

A lot of the jobs we do could probably be done with the 3+2 as you mention. Would cutting a round or roundish job with the head tipped be considered 3+2? So xy and C simultaneously moving but the head tip remaining stationary and the z only stepping down in waterline toolpaths.

I can see doing a lot of this in the taller jobs we make.

I have been looking for a while and there are almost no used 5 axis machines on the market locally. Importing a used machine from the US does concern me with all the hidden costs. I also only have a ceiling just over 12' high which is really tight for 5 axis. I have a wooden floor so I will have to put in a foundation no matter what the machine is so I can drop it into the floor a little. But I don't want a deep pit.

Importing machines -- costs ..

In Your place I would first look at what machines I want, ideally, and what service help I might get within canada OR the USA.
99% of service is skill and some machine-specific know-how -- easily done via skype from the USA, with a local technician onsite to help, perhaps yourself, etc. to test/measure/wiggle bits.

As long as You have access to the machine-specific experience/skill, the rest is easily sorted out, if critical spares are available somewhere, anywhere, in the world.
Specific IO boards, psu stuff, motion-control boards, servo drives and maybe crt/display stuff.
And available at reasonable cost !

Importing and transporting machines from anywhere in the world is relatively cheap.
I have done dozens of containers and dozens of machines, in/from/to many countries for 25+ years.

The only hard/expensive part is getting vendor/support lock-in - as used to be the case, with only factory pricing/techs/know-how/manuals at $$$.

--
I looked at the freedom machines website.
Very very sparse on technical details.
Ballscrew rise, thickness, mounts, servo resolution, controller speed, lookahead, linear guide details etc ??.
Rigidity in u/N ?
Support and technical manuals ?

It looks like a kit-of-parts.
This not *not* negative but positive, generally.
It is probably fine, and will probably work fine, and would probably be a productive asset in truth.

I myself would probably prefer the freedom machine, vs old stuff, and focus on the commercial contract with them.
Suggest:
Contract for 1 month on-site premium tech-support in your premises at x cost, 2 weeks-1 wk-1 wk sets.
Paid at ordering.

And ask/define what You need or want to make, and define that the techs must deliver such functionality within yy time.
In your place, with your sw, your cam, or whatever they provide to make it happen.
With your tools, products etc. - define them.

This service might be quite expensive, for 4 weeks on-site and guaranteed results.
For a 50k$ machine, it might cost 20-30k$.
Best money you can ever invest - and the most profitable.

You can/could learn for 0$ direct costs .. in 300-500-1000 hours of work (several people over time) and lost profit from workers learning/adjusting to the new machine and fixing minor glitches.
And from only getting 30% productivity, because no worker ever learns complex sw/hw well vs the real best case.

Ran komos, older router, all 3 axis. If you want something industrial I would go with Northwood Machine if not Komo. If working with wood...I would ask NOT to have grease on the guideways but oil...so you can wipe it off easily without staining.

There is also a up and coming rebuilder I can talk with you in PM depending on the work you do. IF you do cabinets these machines may be your style more..

If I am following what you are saying, yes I would call that a 3+2. I would make a work plane that was more or less the average of a section of the surface on one side of the part and then program it the same as I would for a 3 axis. You can do this many times to get full coverage and although it is not a slick as a full 5 axis move, it works very well and even with full 5 axis moves there are times that you will need to go back and touch up areas. What it should do is position the tool normal to that work plane (perp to the surface) and then run the toolpath. An advantage to this is that you can rotate the head so that you can use the rest of the ball mill instead of just the very tip of it. You should be able to get a better surface finish and do it faster as you can get a chip and could even run lower rpm as it can use the outer diameter of the cutter.

12' should be good enough on ceiling unless you find a really big Z machine. Usually the only thing really sticking up high on them is the counterbalance cylinder. If I recall I was looking at one that I thought I could lay the cylinder down on it and gain a few feet in height that way.

As Hanermo said, getting a new machine is typically the quickest way to get to making money with a machine if you haven't ran one of them before. I looked for a machine like mine because I had experience with them, both in reliability and I knew how to run it and what it was capable of. I also had the post processor for it on hand etc, so I was up and running the first day I had it hooked up. If you haven't ran a machine with a certain control it will take some time to learn it and get efficient. This is where the training from buying a new machine helps tremendously. If I hadn't had the training at my old job, I would have had a rough time learning it all on my own. If you do find a used machine that you like, it might be worth it to still get someone to come to you for training on it.

1. THIS.
Your goal is not to own a machine.
Your goal is to make money.

macgyver said:

As Hanermo said, getting a new machine is typically the quickest way to get to making money with a machine if you haven't ran one of them before.
I looked for a machine like mine because I had experience with them, both in reliability and I knew how to run it and what it was capable of. I also had the post processor for it on hand etc, so I was up and running the first day I had it hooked up. If you haven't ran a machine with a certain control it will take some time to learn it and get efficient. This is where the training from buying a new machine helps tremendously. If I hadn't had the training at my old job, I would have had a rough time learning it all on my own.

1.
If you do find a used machine that you like, it might be worth it to still get someone to come to you for training on it.

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I cannot get the local Onsrud dealer to return my calls, if he doesn't return calls when I am looking at buying good luck with service. I got a quote from FMT which looks pretty good. The local Komo dealer is supposed to send me info on a newer used Komo today, and he is coming to visit Monday.

Looking around at old posts on PM I found someone mention Shop Sabre which I had written off as a low end machine. But they have a newer line that looks comparable to the FMT. Tubing weight looks comparable or even slightly heavier, an inch more z travel than the FMT. Windows controller proprietary which is a negative but mitsubishi motors which is a positive. Z speed looks lightening fast compared to my current machine. Price is very attractive. They are the only company that got back to me within a day of emailing or contacting via website.

These machines look like they are a step down from the Onsrud or Komo machines with similar travel but they look similar to the Komo or Onsrud smaller machines. Being able to pay cash rather than borrowing a bunch means a lot. There are days where my current machine runs 15+ hours per day but I also have weeks where it barely moves. These machines are also very clean around the spindle I don't want my toolchanger spindle mounted as it may crash into the job. I often end up using shorter cutters and dipping into coreboxes or the down the sides of patterns that are dome shaped. If there are a lot of things around the spindle they have the potential to crash. No decision but unless the used Komo is a good price I am leaning towards either the FMT or Shop Sabre.

I am going to look at a moving table Komo Monday. My concern is that it is a 15 year old machine and that the controller will not be fast enough for HSM toolpaths. The other thing is that it is a moving table machine which burns up twice the floor space. I realize that the moving table is often a stronger configuration. I am also waiting to see if there are any FMT machines local to me that I can go see. The Komo will be a much stronger machine with faster travel speeds but if the controller cannot keep up the speed may actually be slower.

It should be a Fanuc control on the Komo although they did have a few Siemens controls on a handful of machines I was told. The guy I talked to said they were pretty rare though and said I should pass unless it was dirt cheap just due to the small number of them they made, it'd be hard to find help on it.

Anyway, I'd be confident that the control could handle HSM toolpaths, but the problem maybe the amount of memory. I am not very familiar with the newer ones, you could ask a generic question in the cnc section and I am sure you will many answers. Mine has a OM control on it and has very little memory, but it can run surfacing programs nicely, especially if it is in the control vs DNC.

Find out which control is on that Komo, also how much Z? Usually the 3 axis machines didn't have alot unless they had aggregate heads or drill heads and were intended to run parts up on pods.