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Garage doors, wood choice?

Considering a couple pairs of "garage mahal" type doors - if the lumber choice was between african mahogany and spanish cedar, which would be preferable for stability, durability (rot resistance) and structural soundness? why?

I've built acres of doors and windows over the years including out of south american ("bigleaf"/ aka "honduran") mahogany. Have not used either of the mentioned species for doors. I have built similar or larger sized gates out of redwood. I have not previously made appearance grade garage doors.

smt
 
... if the lumber choice was between african mahogany and Spanish cedar, which would be preferable for stability, durability (rot resistance) and structural soundness? why?

Stability: Spanish Cedar

Durability: a tie

Structural Soundness: African Mahogany. Spanish Cedar is a relatively soft and weak material, with a Modulus of rupture of 10,260 lbf/in[SUP]2[/SUP]. compared to 13,190 lbf/in[SUP]2 [/SUP]for the Khaya.

I've built acres of doors and windows over the years including out of south american ("bigleaf"/ aka "honduran") mahogany.


That would be the ideal choice, in my view. One of the most durable woods, perfect mix of hardness and workability. More costly than the other two, obviously.

Spanish Cedar dust has a gross taste, and suits planing much more than sanding. It also has natural gum pockets present which can gum up blades and pose a problem for finishing if the gum comes to the surface.
 
Chris -

Thank you for those clear insights.
I have always shied away from spanish cedar but a lot of people use it.

True/SA mahogany probably is not in the price picture for this one.
I also had an interesting experience with it. Built that church window with it, sourced from Irion, so should have been the "good stuff". Chopped all the scrap mixed with other hardwoods and piled out on the stove wood pile. A couple years later when getting back down to that layer, ants had riddled the mahogany scraps like swiss cheese and left the other scraps including maple alone. It was like they thought it was candy.

How would spanish cedar compare to douglas fir?

Wish we could get port orford cedar in good grades at reasonable prices on the east coast.

IIRC you make a lot of windows. What is your preferred material for wood?

smt
 
Will these doors be painted or clear finished? And what are the needs for weight and strength? Roll up, side hinged or sliding?
 
Chris -

Thank you for those clear insights.
I have always shied away from spanish cedar but a lot of people use it.

True/SA mahogany probably is not in the price picture for this one.
I also had an interesting experience with it. Built that church window with it, sourced from Irion, so should have been the "good stuff". Chopped all the scrap mixed with other hardwoods and piled out on the stove wood pile. A couple years later when getting back down to that layer, ants had riddled the mahogany scraps like swiss cheese and left the other scraps including maple alone. It was like they thought it was candy.

How would spanish cedar compare to douglas fir?

Wish we could get port orford cedar in good grades at reasonable prices on the east coast.

IIRC you make a lot of windows. What is your preferred material for wood?

smt

DougFir is excellent outdoors providing you only use the heartwood portion with greater concentrations of extractives, and stay away from the outside of the log, material-wise.

Given the bug holes you mentioned finding in the mahogany, I would suspect that the pieces of scrap had a good portion of sapwood -not unusual in offcuts. That would be the attraction for the bugs in that case.

I have some old growth Port Orford Cedar in stock, and can obtain Alaskan Yellow Cedar (which I consider superior generally to POC) in the area, so let me know if I can help you out with either of those species.

A local millwork shop which specializes in windows for historic preservation work also has been finding mahogany pricing and supply a challenge in recent years. I know they had been using sapele, with mixed results but also had been using/trying out Utile, aka Sipo: Utile | The Wood Database - Lumber Identification (Hardwoods)

Another option, though not on the inexpensive side, is Afrormosia ( Afrormosia | The Wood Database - Lumber Identification (Hardwoods) ). I worked some the other week and it looks just like Burmese teak (which I had on hand to compare), only quite a bit harder and without the silicates.
 
Buy a fiberglass hollow core door with a textured finish. Put a faux mahogany finish on it. Or get somebody who really knows how to do it. In my youth I was totally amazed when I went to some of the really big cathedrals that were being restored. Huge pine replacement door next to the oak originals. What is with that? I asked. I was told to examine the remaining original doors closely. They were pine with a faux oak finish.
But you want to build them yourself and you have the necessary tools and skills for that. I can fully understand that. My wife, not so much. Done looks so much better than not done.
I need to insulate my laundry room Sunday, have a helper coming following Friday to help me hang board. I will mud myself. Also paint, and floor tiles. When that is done I still need to make a small truckload of cabinets for the room. Yes, full pickup load.

For a fee of $000.00 I will go to your house with a rifle and force you to buy a fiberglass doorin front of your wife. Will you do the same for me?
 
Western red cedar?
I'm assuming frame and panel construction. Start with readily available construction thicknesses, (siding?) then glue using West System for the thick rails and stiles with 3 laminations. Edge glue the panels with same. Coat all of it with West System before assembly but after fit up. Assemble. Top coat with a durable UV filtering top coat.
 
Chris - I may contact you. Alaskan Yellow Cedar sounds intriguing.
The mahogany was not sapwood. Actually, I also have some small pieces of "Cuban" mahogany that is ant or termite ridden. Left overs from a job at the EEOB ("Whitehouse")that came out of Florida from a deadfall tree. But at least that was around a section where the center of the growing tree had rotted out. I used to use Douglas fir for some exterior trim. But non-vertical grade tends to spall, especially if not painted. And vertical grade is not really the ideal orientation to avoid warping of stiles, though it is ideal for width-wise shrinkage. :) I really like the strength, workability, appearance of vertical grade, and the smell! Probably won't consider it for this one since as you note it is difficult, at least for east coasters, to source good heartwood. It is somewhat prone to check, too. But I wondered how Spanish cedar compared (other than absolute strength)since I don't have a benchmark for SC.

Scruffy - the doors are not for me. I can't afford them. Heck, I can't even afford a garage!

Henrya- You can get any thickness WRC out of Canada in the rough (my preference) & I do use it for some items. You can specify the cut ("vertical" grade or flat sawn). Used to buy WRC and redwood in Cleveland. That source has huge balks, but the material is not dried. Basically they have piles of pieces like 24" x 24" x 32' long. (or did 30 years ago) When your order comes in, they resaw a block into say your 4 x 12 x 16 footer beams or whatever. All that said, I think WRC is too soft for garage doors.

smt
 
Chris - I may contact you. Alaskan Yellow Cedar sounds intriguing.
The mahogany was not sapwood. Actually, I also have some small pieces of "Cuban" mahogany that is ant or termite ridden. Left overs from a job at the EEOB ("Whitehouse")that came out of Florida from a deadfall tree. But at least that was around a section where the center of the growing tree had rotted out.

smt


Thinking about it further, it doesn't make sense in regards to the sapwood issue, since ants, as far as I know, do not bore into wood for food, but for shelter. In the absence of a nest, are you sure it was ants?
 
Stephen,
I was going for light weight, low price and easy availability. WRC may well be too soft, especially if the doors are frequently handled. Maybe not with the coat of epoxy. Of your two original choices, I guess I'd go with the mahogany.

And on second thought, I'd think hard about laminating the rails and stiles. That pretty much kills any warping or twisting problems. And its not much additional work, nor wasteful of materials.
 
Odd question to me as North America has so many options for durable softwood timbers- certainly from my perpective.
WRC- dents easily and will soon look scruffy.
Alaskan yellow is fairly strong and well worth a look. Seriously durable. Stability wise, some pieces can have tension but they are fairly obvious. Dust is irritating and makes some guys sick. I like the smell but not the itching. West system epoxy glues it ok but the timber can be very oily so a sub with unfilled epoxy before gluing is the procedure.
Water base primer sloughs right off, which is all ok by me.

Accoya- not my favourite but durable and stable. Smells like vinegar and requires stainless fasteners.

Who said fiberglass! GTFO and buy me a new planer and router (and lungs no doubt). Shame!
 
Odd question to me as North America has so many options for durable softwood timbers- certainly from my perpective

"Sort of" :) Nothing with quite the workability, stability, and durability of mahogany. (Yeah, it grows in Florida, but not in commercial quantities, and not at "favorable" pricing. WRC & Redwood are too soft and redwood does not have much strength, and is about the only wood that shrinks and expands noticeably in length as well as width. :)

Timbers that used to be considered durable and would be suitable, like cypress, are no longer reliable. I had good luck with cypress "many" years ago, but a couple jobs in the past 15 or so years went punky and rotted out faster than North eastern white pine probably would have. Which is also no longer the durable wood it was in the 19thC. You can get old growth cypress and sinkers, but the price is astronomical. I used to use Douglass fir for out door trim that was to be painted, but it is difficult to source on the east coast, especially with the sapwood cut out, and vertical grade that holds paint is expensive beyond the application. Port Orford Cedar is a niche wood now. etc.

Alsakan Yellow Cedar looks intriquing. But it is not much sold in the lower 48. I imagine it may be more common on the export markets than domestically. I really only learned of it from Chris via this post. It appears it would cost about twice what Khaya does; and does not provide quite the look desired for this installation. Would love to use it if as good as what I've recently read.

In hardwoods, American cherry heartwood is durable, and I really like black walnut which is extremetly durable. The problem with these timbers gets back to cost. In a "run of the mill" load of either, in 8/4, it is difficult or expensive to acquire it with no sapwood (which rots fast). Both can be had in sizes and grain run suitable for doors, but the price gets well above competing imported timbers.

One of the biggest producers of black locust is very hear me. I have gotten quite a few feet of free samples over the years & dry some in my loft for sills and such. But they do not dry it (kiln) and the good stuff except what you find laying about, tends to go to distribution yards or is pre-bought. Black locust is tough to source in grades suitable for doors and large architectural work "quickly" and really needs to be inspected. It is milled and shipped as it grows with bark inclusions and lots fo knots and growth defects. I have sound, thick pieces, rather like the wood, but it is just not "convenient" for something like a door project. That said, I need to lay in some and dry it. Till it is sourced, selected, and dried, it ends up in the same ballpark price as imports like Spanish Cedar and Khaya. It is dense, so when it decides to warp, it is rather adamant.

Khaya/African mahogany was the best price locally, I have used the wood in the past including outdoor applications, so yesterday committed to 1,000 ft of 10/4. Should be here next Wednesday. About enough time to clean & organize the shop of all the metal stuff & chips strewn about from the last 6 months work. I will be glad to get back to wood chips, bigger pieces, and more exercise!

smt
 
In comparison to the mahogany you are used to working with, have you used the Fijian plantation grown mahogany and if so how does it compare? It's available and well priced here but there isn't a tradition of using hardwoods for joinery in this part of the world.

The AYC I've been buying is sourced from Canada apparently.
 
Can't help with the woods in question, but as an anecdote...when I lived in California I deconstructed my house down to the studs. It was an 1878 Victorian that aside from an addition in the 1890's was almost untouched save for a few layers of paint. All the shiplap siding and trim was beautiful vertical grain redwood in pristine condition 120 years later, but it wasn't used for any structural members. All the framing, doors and flooring was rock hard Douglass fir still in excellent condition despite some areas being exposed to the weather. You could still get nice fir on the west coast, but the redwood was mostly junk and it still carried a premium price.
 
Any wood you pick will need finishing and refinishing.
It will twist, warp, and move.


I've had my interest captured by the new plastic doors I see.


Double layered plastic with insulating airspace.


Translucent, transmits sunlight into the shop/garage area.
But doesn't' create unwanted Summer heat with the greenhouse effect.

Perfect for my needs.
 
In comparison to the mahogany you are used to working with, have you used the Fijian plantation grown mahogany and if so how does it compare? It's available and well priced here but there isn't a tradition of using hardwoods for joinery in this part of the world.

Have not used the plantation grown. Sounds interesting.

Perhaps not truly "plantation"; there is a guy near me/Ithaca area that sells new "cuban" (swietenia mahogani) in big sizes that grows on some island his family owns in Palau archipelago. (600 mi east of Phillipines/Micronesia area/North of Oz) Apparently they sustainably harvest/re-plant it. Target of course is high end traditional furniture (for which there is very little market anymore. No one wants that OBF "Old Brown Furniture" that was so desired and set such sales records in the late 70's and 80's) Most of it was priced in the $25 - $30/bd ft range when I visited about a dozen years ago to fill an order for a job in DC (We ended up sourcing it from FLA deadfall).

Any wood you pick will need finishing and refinishing.
It will twist, warp, and move.


I've had my interest captured by the new plastic doors I see.


Double layered plastic with insulating airspace.


Translucent, transmits sunlight into the shop/garage area.
But doesn't' create unwanted Summer heat with the greenhouse effect.

Perfect for my needs.

Lot of merit to that approach for many. I was talking with a lumberman recently about how much both sides of the business have changed in the 40 years we have been doing it. When I started, any "interesting" millwork including custom doors and windows tended to be sourced from largish but local millworks especially for anything designed by an architect. That all changed by the end of the 70's when all the now name-brand window outfits went national and added cladding and thermal features to the products; which also began evolving to less and less wood. He said in the past 20 years more than 1/2 of their customers disappeared. Even cabinets and other features that used to be competitively sourced locally are now bought from national chains. Furniture is imported. etc. I had thought we woodworkers died off and were replaced, but really most of us are going the way of the dodo. :D

Not necessarily a bad thing. Nevertheless. there is still quite a bit of classic woodwork including architectural features such as doors, windows, and exterior "trim" that have lasted a hundred years or more. Try that with plastic. There are still people for whom both the style and the "nostalgia" are important to a look that appeals to them. Fortunately for us dodos, there is a small percentage of same people who have the wherewithal to afford whatever they want, too.

smt
 
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