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Hardwood Lumber Grades

SIP6A

Titanium
Joined
May 29, 2003
Location
Temperance, Michigan
Could somebody tell me the difference between grade FAS and select in hard maple.

What do you get in grade FAS that you don't get in grade select.
 
FAS boards allow minimum 6" wide & 8' long. Select allows minimum 4" wide & 6' long.
 
Basically longer wider boards.

FAS has to be all 6" & wider, and 8' and longer. Clear cutting has to be at least 83-1/3% In a thousand feet you are supposed to get a certain percentage of 12" & wider boards, and 12' - 16' long. But that has slipped a bit, and the buyer and seller sometimes agree on something like "I can use all 10' boards" in which case mostly 10' with a few 8's and 9's will be slipped in. It is still supposed to run wide.

Select can include boards as short as 6' and as narrow as 4". Basically you get close to top grade as far as minimal knots and defects, but it will be narrower boards, or wide boards with a few knots or center defects that mean they have to be ripped narrow anyway, or cut in shorter lengths, for a clear cutting. It will still be pretty good lumber.

Also, FAS has to be good both faces. SEL is supposed to be FAS one face (except for dimensions noted above), but can be 1C on the "back" side.

PS: You mention hard maple. The white sapwood is the valuable commodity and is sold specified as "FAS all sap hard maple" or "FAS white hard maple". It will still come in FAS with some heart on one side of some boards. If you don't specify, there could be a lot of heart in the mix. SEL will tend to include more heart, and you may or may not be able to specify "all sap". As the grades decline in maple, more heartwood may be included. You have to clarify when buying to make sure of what they are sending. Most will try to accommodate if they know what you want, or at least tell you what they have or do not have.

If you can clarify the sapwood (preferred in hard maple, but a defect in say oak or walnut) then buying by the grade depends on what your product will be. For small patterns, you can probably use 1C & cut between and beside the knots. Waste will be high, but may or may not be offset by low cost. For making entry doors or long mouldings, FAS is probably more economical overall. For keeping in the loft for spec, pretty much only FAS works out well for me.

smt
 
Thanks to both for your reply.

So if I understand correctly the wood itself is the same quality just smaller boards in the select vs the FAS

Also is hard maple the same no-matter where you buy it.

I can go to Freemen Supply Co. and get pattern maple or I can go to our local hardwood lumber yard and get hard maple is it the same?

I'm making a pattern.
 
I probably added and modified my answer while you were typing, some answers your questions.

Addressing the Freemans: In theory if you select the wood yourself from the lumber yard, and if it meters correctly for MC, then you can get the exact same thing suitable for patterns.

What Freemans does for "pattern grade" is make sure there are practically no knots (better than average of FAS), no shakes or splits in any piece they sell you. They might or might not select for superior grain characteristics, and presumably it will have no heartwood. (In hard maple). Presumably they know what the MC is and it does not vary.

A random board off an FAS pile might have a split. (Freemans will probably cut any split board and make it into 2 smaller perfect ones) It might have heartwood on one side. If the pile is in un-heated storage for a long time and picked through by random customers, it might have picked up some surface moisture on one side or the other.

If you can go and handle/select the boards, you might be able to pick "perfect" material for a project like yours out of merely the 1C pile. So the proposition boils down to control of all the factors that are important to you. Generally speaking, FAS and SEL are going to be pretty good. But any one board out of 1,000 ft could have been the one that was at the low end of the grade.

smt
 
If you can go and handle/select the boards, you might be able to pick "perfect" material for a project like yours out of merely the 1C pile. So the proposition boils down to control of all the factors that are important to you. Generally speaking, FAS and SEL are going to be pretty good. But any one board out of 1,000 ft could have been the one that was at the low end of the grade.

smt

That's so true, especially if you only need small quantities or a board or two.

Stephen, when you've worked in the DC area do you source lumber in this area or locally upstate? Haven't found a good supplier yet, other than some small retail operations. Have heard about an Amish mill in southern Maryland, but naturally they don't have a phone number or listing I could find and I've only encountered anecdotal comments online about its location/existence. Was going to try Rex lumber out of VA since they're a wholesaler and service my area.

~Pete
 
If we're going to be accurate here, location make a difference in physical properties of sugar maple. Soil, environment (temperature. rainfall, sunshine), probably even small genetic differences can have a large effect. Some areas have whiter sapwood, some have more mineral stains, etc..

As Stephen say, Michigan has excellent maple, think of all those Gibson guitars and banjos. As far as sources for PJD, you might want to check out Irion Lumber in PA. Nice people and more sensitive to individual needs than most outfits.
 
Thanks Richard, I'll check them out. I don't do high volume, but it's been a real mixed bag getting consistent supplies that aren't heavily marked up.
 
Pete-

My shop was north of Frederick/south of Gettysburg. To drive and inspect lumber, I used to find excellent material and fair prices at Lafferty Lumber in LeMoyne, just south side of Harrisburg. All domestics, but sometimes unusual stuff, like clear wide sassafras boards or such. Keep in mind, that was 25 -35 years ago. It was a sleepy place and the impression was one of those old line places left over from the 30's/ 40's where some of the office staff went to an early liquid lunch and surreptitiously dozed through the afternoon. I imagine that since they are still in business, things may be quite different.

I bought a lot from Mann & Parker, but they would cheat you as a matter of course if the lumber wasn't counted every load. A lot of shops along the Mason Dixon line bought from them because they had very good material and the prices were pretty good as quoted. The caveat was that 1,000 ft ordered and invoiced for somehow ended up being around 820 or so delivered for the quoted price. This wasn't just me, it was half a dozen shops I was familiar with. The rules more or less allow them to add shrinkage (5%) but somehow they always tried to stretch it to 15% - 25%. Again: 25 - 40 year old experiences.

Near Mann & Parker, for specialty boards, wide boards, Sandy Pond Hardwoods. Drive and see.

Your reference suggests that you may be trying to discover Hicksville Planing Mill? I was one of Robert Miller's first customers & introduced his best customer for the past 2 decades to him, and continue to this day to buy something, usually one of the mahoganies, about once every few years. However he continues to forget who I am even when I show up, lol.

Regular customers used to be able to arrive even during off hours, pull their lumber, and let Robert know later how much they got and settle up. Then one time the crew showed up and there was a customer dead under a collapsed lumber pile. I think you can still pick your own. Even though Robert always asks "who are you again?" they show me the pile or get it down with the forklift, and then leave me alone until I am loaded.

Prices are not as great as they used to be but still better than most places for most materials. It has routinely been worth the drive from upstate NY anytime for 500 ft of any of the mahoganies. One of the sons took over about 15 years ago and kind of improved the financial side. Robert used to toss all the money in the top drawer in his unattended office, just stuffed full of Bens & Grants. One of my late friends who built pool tables used to get on Robert about 2 things, raising his prices to make a profit, and getting a little more secure about his cash deposit system. Roberts response was always (very slow drawl) "Weeeelllll.......then at the end of the year I'd have to give it all to the IRS.....(pause)..... This way I just give a little away every day".

They are hugely good people, but I have to say that typically no one in the mill can read lumber in the sense that a cabinet maker or millwork guy can. If you order lumber as opposed to select it yourself, they might send a huge wide board, very pleased & proud of sharing it with you, but it will have checks into the center, a huge cat face, black stain throughout, and perhaps a punky area on the back. If you buy cypress, they don't know that it should be all heartwood, and hence the pile will need a lot of selecting. Etc, etc. They have some young people working there that are quietly proud of their work and beginning to improve the professionalism of the millwork. They even have some cnc lathes and a big cnc router in a separate facility down the road. There is usually very good lumber in the yard in most common species and some imports, but best to select your own.

BTW, Robert is Mennonite, not Amish. They have always had an office phone.

Google

smt
 
Per the Irion note: I buy from them when I need long wide boards for specific applications that mostly use the whole board. Wide mouldings or wide flooring, etc. There is so little waste, especially if you pick it yourself, that despite the cost it is very cost effective. Prices are listed on their website, so it is easy to estimate whether it makes sense for a given project.

If the parts count for a given project includes many smaller pieces (say furniture) material of similar quality can often be personally selected at Hicksville Planing Mill for a fraction of the cost at Irion's. It will depend on inventory at the time of your order whether you are sorting from a fresh 2,000 ft bundle, or the dregs of one that has been picked over for the past month. Irion's will always have "perfect" material as far as what is on hand.

smt
 
Stephen, great story thanks for sharing!

There's a mill in Crownsville, MD called Garman's and it's a third generation operation with an old massive circular blade. Can't remember, but I think the blade was at least 6' in diameter. I was nervous just standing next to the thing motionless. Garmen mostly saws low grade poplar for industrial clients, but he does occasionally get walnut and cherry logs and will saw anything you bring him. I had a few logs trucked to him to get milled and built a solar kiln in anticipation of receiving the green lumber. Garmen has a shack/"office" with a landline, no answering machine and doesn't particularly like answering the phone so the only sure fire way to get a hold of him is driving to the mill. Every month or so I'd check in with him and he'd say the logs will get milled in "a couple weeks". I finally got the delivery about 6 months later, which was the last time I dealt with him, but he's an authentic guy, quite a character! Your comments about mills reminded me of him.

The Amish mill I was referencing is south of DC, near route 234 & 5, that's about the closest description of its location I've found.

Another time I ordered a few hundred feet from a local guy with a startup mill sourcing logs from the family's excavation company. Nice guy, cheap prices, but I should have cancelled the order when he said the MC was 3%?! I don't think you can get 3% in Arizona! After the lumber arrived I checked the MC and couldn't get half the boards to register so they were over 20% and the "5/4" walnut was a robust 3/4"-1" thick rough sawn. I should have had him come back and collect his 'sponges', instead I threw them in the kiln for a month and moved on.
 
Per the Irion note: I buy from them when I need long wide boards for specific applications that mostly use the whole board. Wide mouldings or wide flooring, etc. There is so little waste, especially if you pick it yourself, that despite the cost it is very cost effective. Prices are listed on their website, so it is easy to estimate whether it makes sense for a given project.

If the parts count for a given project includes many smaller pieces (say furniture) material of similar quality can often be personally selected at Hicksville Planing Mill for a fraction of the cost at Irion's. It will depend on inventory at the time of your order whether you are sorting from a fresh 2,000 ft bundle, or the dregs of one that has been picked over for the past month. Irion's will always have "perfect" material as far as what is on hand.

smt

Good to know. All my work is furniture so I use quite a range of sizes and don't have too much waste because my parts range from 18" to 7-8' and gluing up random widths isn't a problem. Rex lumber was highly recommended by a woodworker I bought some cutters from so I may get an order to meet they're minimums, since they wholesal, and see what shows up. Regardless, it's nice to have other sources and aware of which vendors you can count on for different items. Completely agree that paying more for better quality lumber is cheaper than cutting around the defects of lower priced stuff. Tried that a few times and wasted more time than it was worth.
 
In the U.S., hardwood lumber is graded under rules set forth by the National Hardwood Lumber Association. Their website is here:
National Hardwood Lumber Association

You can read the latest edition of the rule book here:
Rules Book

In addition to the general rules set forth in the beginning of the book, there are many special rules, some according to species, some according to end use (such as "Piano Action Hard Maple".)

If you are engaged in buying or selling hardwoods, you need to study this rule book and know the rules and what they mean.
 








 
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