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Pros and cons of epoxy vs wood glue for laminating veneer

legoboy

Hot Rolled
Joined
Nov 14, 2011
Location
Alberta
I do a lot of laminating in the building of pool cues, and have always defaulted to the use of epoxy. Does yellow glue have any advantage over epoxy?
Specifically when laminating layers of veneers.
 
Depends on: if you need to apply the yellow glue to the veneer it won't work out well. If the yellow glue is applied to solid wood and then the veneer is place on it, fine. The water in yellow glue will make the veneers curl right away. I'd probably stick with the epoxy for cues. The water in the other glues may cause problems with uneven warping.
We vacuum press panels, veneer on both faces using water bourn glues (balanced.)
 
Epoxy cons--it is always harder to clean up, requires (usually careful) mixing, often has a relatively short pot life once mixed, is more expensive, and sometimes can color stain light wood.

But it is so worth it in terms of durability, gap-filling qualities, resistance to moisture (or even soaking), and strength.

Use the good stuff. I use WEST system.
 
If you are making microlams for shaftwood, I would personally prefer not to use a waterbase glue. It is too unpredictable as to which way it will warp & multiple thin plies puts a lot of water in the part.

I occasionally make cues, but have never laminated a shaft (don't believe it adds anything, myself) But I have laminated thousands of board feet of curved stuff for millwork. A part glued up with WEST is pretty predictable and does not spring much assuming an adequate number of plies for a given bend. When glued with Titebond Extend, sometimes parts will lay "correctly", sometimes the curve will eventually dry tighter radius than the form it was glued on, and sometimes it will twist a little. Some wider parts may cup slightly across the width.

I think the moisture may make the part bend and set "better" over time as far as the shape it finally takes having less stress, but not be predictable as to what that final shape will be. Based on experience, Titebond Extend makes a good lamination, but for me it takes more time over all, and is more difficult to lay up large assemblies when working alone. I just prefer WEST and am comfortable with the repeatability.

That said, WEST works best with sanded surfaces. I run laminae through the widebelt sander, as opposed to planer. If the WEST hardener has sat around a while, it turns red. So the 3-way combination of a fairly strong colored red adhesive, a thick glue line due to being sanded, and epoxy's tendency to soak in, can yield very visible glue lines.

Titebond works best with very smooth (planed) surfaces, a (proper) glue line is very thin, and the glue is essentially colorless (the glue line, not smears). So it does offer the possibility of making laminations that in many cases a non-woodworker can't see the layers even if they are pointed out.

You could certainly do an experiment and report! :)

If I am wrong and you are talking about feature veneers in the points, "invisible" glue lines might be an advantage for Titebond at least for making the layers. I think I would still glue them in the butt with epoxy. I make full splice butts/points, have not experimented with introducing feature veneers.

smt
 
I do a lot of laminating in the building of pool cues, and have always defaulted to the use of epoxy. Does yellow glue have any advantage over epoxy?
Specifically when laminating layers of veneers.

PVA (yellow glue or even the brown version) is never totally solid it will creep. If you make a structural laminate using PVA glue will eventually cause it to fail. for structral lamination one should use ureathen, resorcinol or epoxy. Each will have different properties that require different methods of assemble and clamping.

dee
;-D
 
Thank you everyone for the insights. It sounds like epoxy is still the way to go. I use the West system.
 
+1 for the pre Cat urea resin, it is very good. Cleans up with water and has lots of working time.
It also is a very rigid bond, no creep and tight joints are almost invisible.
I have done a lot of curved laminated work and this glue is the best, I stay away from epoxy for the reasons stated by ST.
Too bad the resin and powder type of Urea glue is not available anymore, it was even better.

Those cues look good, I am guessing that the red, lime and yellow are not natural veneer colours?

Cheers,

Michael
 
I have seen more failures with plastic resin glue in marine applications (not below waterline). These failures have given the appearance of the glue returning to a dry, granular form, with the glue joint completely failing, and with the wood exhibiting virtually no absorption.
 
Ww use time bond exterior and have not had any failures and our trick is to rub it into both sides of mating surfaces and as such wood fails first.

If using epoxy thin with acetone to allow it to pen et rate the fibers.

However follow up with specific manufacturer for material specific guidelines.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using Tapatalk
 
I started woodworking about the time Elmer's white glue was the new, do everything consumer glue, hide glue was still in use but people had mostly forgotten how to use it correctly, and the "super glue" of the era was either Weldwood Plastic Resin glue, or Weldwood 2 part Phenol Resorcinal at a much higher cost and less ease of use.

Today, Phenol resorcinal is still the top glue for superior extreme exterior performance, though WEST epoxy gives nearly the same with a lot less critical application, clamping, and temperature requirements.
Other downside for the P-R is a deep purple glue line that penetrates about 1/8" on either side of the joint.

Since plastic resin glue was supposed to be the "best" and sort of waterproof of the time, (mid-late 60's) I used it a few times and never got what I considered really good bonds with it. According to the Forest Products Research Lab, is also degrades predictably over a 20 year period. The constituents chemically break down. I have not used it since the mid 70's. I did use a lot of PR in the late 70's, discovered WEST around '81 and have not looked back. For interior work it is one of the yellow glues or another.

smt
 
When you talk about "urea" do you mean Weldwood Plastic Resin Glue with urea formaldehyde? That was always my favorite glue back in the day when I was doing more woodworking. I was looking for some recently and found it's still available, but hard to find.

Doug,
I use urea ppr from Veneer Systems INC. It is a powder mixed with water, the mixing is a bit of a pain and cleanup is more difficult than the resin type but it bonds very well and that is the really important part.

To those that have seen urea resin failures I am pretty sure the cause is old resin.
Fresh resin is easily poured from the container, if it thickens at all it is done, throw it away. It can be tempting to use old resin but not when the glue joints fail.
The other cause of failures would be from improper proportions, it is quite important to weigh the powder and get the right amount in the mix.
We used to use a curing agent that would accelerate the drying, instead of four hours it cut the time to 1 hour or less, it worked well but I never did find out what kind of acid it was.

Michael
 








 
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