What's new
What's new

Shaper Education Needed

me

Cast Iron
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Location
Annapolis, MD
So I have survived to date without a shaper; a router table, jointer, and a williams and hussey has gotten me this far, but a good deal came my way and am looking forward to now having one at hand.

Obvisouly lacking any tooling (heads) I need to begin the process of procuring some. Shaper, BTW, is a Dependable S-10 which is a rather unknown name but is a very stout machine, came with 1 1/8 spindle, but is removable so I can always fabricate smaller or larger spindle if needed.

First question, with the 1 1/8 spindle, is there any reason to be concerned with running 1 1/4 heads with bushing other than being mindful of theoretical deflection with large cutter and heavy cuts? What would be a "large cutter" in this scenario? In reverse, is there any reason to fabricate a 1 1/4" 1" or 3/4" spindle if I'm not trying to adapt already on hand cutters? Would think I could procure or make tooling for 1 1/4 spindle in any shape needed but could be missing something.

Next, would a "universal head" with removable knives get me down the road say 80% of what I would need? I dont have a dedicated knife grinder, but do have a cincinnati T&C grinder that "could" be used to develop knives from blanks but no real means to follow a pre-determined profile. If so, is there a majic bullet in terms of size, brand, knife Qty, etc? This concept could be challenged by off the shelf brazed carbide tooling if folks think that is more appropriate.
 
Congrats on the shaper. I was without a "functioning" one for some time. Currently I have a Porter on permanent loan from a friend. Very heavy machine 1 1/8 spindle though. Need to find a frequency changer for my dual spindle Buss that needs 220v at 120 cycles.

I bush up 1 1/4 heads all the time. What is the speed of the shaper? 3 1/2 to 4" is about the most I would run for a replacable knife head. You can look a Schmidt or Byrd for corrugated knife heads which would be one version of the "universal head" you are seeking. these are good and safe but have their limitations. Lock edge type tooling is very handy but educate yourself before venturing down that road.

Remember that in this only one knife is acctually generating your profile so when you grind knives only one has to be perfect and the other "close". Weighing within a 1/10 gram to each other is more critical than having the exact same profile. Lots of old timers did beautiful work hand grinding profile knives. I know a few that still do.
 
how about insert tooling? Is that prefered these days given the relatively low cost compared to say 10 years ago?
 
I'm guessing you're talking carbide inserts? For straight cuts they are great. I use them quite a bit on my moulder. For profile stuff unless you plan on running quite a bit of something or absolutely need carbide for something (to me) the added cost of having a body made up to support or having a backer knife made up to support is not worth it. I use insert for my flooring heads on the moulder. It makes sense there because everytime I run flooring there won't be any profile modification. Most of my profile work is one of and short runs so the added cost is not worth it for me. If I did more long runs of stuff or had "standard" profiles I would pursue them. For now I'm a tight fisted German.

HSS is a great cutting material for wood. You get a great finish on it. The only down side is that is dulls faster.
 
I've been using my Delta for close to 30 years. I run it with the 3/4 spindle. Bushing the cutterheads should be no problem.

I use Template Services in Las Vegas for custom knives for my W&H, and he does knives for just about everything.
 
bear with me, Jeff & all you other PM viewers, this is going to be a re-hash of much posted before. :)

Jeff-

It really depends what you intend to do with the shaper, and how comfortable you are with making vs buying tooling.

For slotting/rabbeting & straight heads, there is a lot of merit to indexible tooling. But if quantities and hourly use per year is low, solid body with Tantung tips will be cheaper to source. Tantung is superior to carbide for most wood except manmade board such as plywood & MDF; & tantung can be sharpened with normal AlO wheels instead of diamond.

Solid body cutters for slotting are good in carbide, because they often end up being used on plywood, but diamond wheels on the T & C will be needed to sharpen them.

After that, hand making and sharpening profile bits is how it was done for most of the first hundred years of shapers and moulders & is still viable today. Ultimately it's a personal comfort thing. I started around 1975 with a Belsaw planer and used it as advertised to make mouldings. Bought the first few profiles, then just started making my own. Other than a few carbide round-over cutters for plywood products, I have never bought another shaper or moulder profile cutter since, and make all my own cutter bodies.

An essential element of cutter body design is the geometry of the cutter approach to the work (hook angle, basically) but it can also include things like shear, how the profile is divided among knives and spurs, etc. The reason I started making my own cutters was originally parsimony. Industrial cutterheads cost $thousand$ and light commercial duty common 3-wing carbide and tantung tip cutters usually have an all-purpose geometry that is seldom ideal for the stuff I was making or replicating.

In the late 70's and early 80's, we started to get more flooring work including wideboard floors, which back then were not commonly available. I built these heads because the industrial versions of MTP (milled to pattern) lug bits and cutterheads was close to $3,000 at the time. These create a slightly longer tongue and groove, and it is parallel rather than round, for wider boards, so the tongues do not pop out in times of dryness. Ideally, I should have incorporated carbide slotters into the head; but they work as made, and all that's necessary to sharpen them is a pass across the face and occasional indexing. Of course a few years after making these, custom flooring became available everywhere at a cost less than I could buy the lumber, counting waste and offcuts.

smt_shapertooling1.jpg

smt_shapertooling2.jpg


These are insert slotters I made, they can be stacked for straight cutting up to 2" tall, or interlocked for variable thickness slots, or stacked with spacers to create tongues. Also shown are smaller slotters made with brazed carbide for narrow slots.

smt_shapertooling3.jpg


It is certainly possible to buy carbide or tantung tipped solid body tools with all the profile on one face. To me, the geometry is poor, and I prefer to build industrial style stacks or cutter bodies that separate functions into different spurs, cutters, and inserts for both faster and smoother cutting.

smt_brazedcarbide21.jpg


smt-router-copetooling9.jpg


I mentioned starting in '75 with a Belsaw. Their system of holding single knives in a cutterhead balanced with various weight gibs (aluminum or steel, at various lengths) encouraged me to experiment to extremes in that machine with ever larger and more complex knives. When my Advance double spindle shaper came along a few years later, Belsaw was advertising a different version of their planer that used a 1-1/2" shaft, onto which separate heads could be slid and fixed, for making mouldings. They ran at around 4,500 rpm, so I figured the same heads would be safe for at least that rpm on the shaper. My shaper had 1-1/8" spindles, so I bushed them as you describe. They worked fine, and I still use one for large knives. However, it is somewhat difficult to balance one slot heads, so I quickly began making my own with 3, 4 and eventually 2 slots; incorporating various gib styles including the more common (compared to Belsaw) pocket and wedge gib styles.

I don't use corrugated back cutterheads mostly because they were too new and hence too expensive when I started; and have never used a typical bevel edged shaper cutter set with slip knives. Again the issue for me is not so much safety, as cost - there's a lot of expensive steel beyond the cutting edge to hold a knife in the collars; and the bevel edge steel is a premium cost. But they are an effective solution for a lot of typical work. Especially with integral ball bearing rub collar and lock edge steel for safety.

Grinding knives is a lot simpler and easier than most people imagine. The problem beoomes what cutterhead to hold it in, and what is a safe speed to run that cutterhead? Making your own, there are a lot of unknowns. I was fastidious when making early cutterheads and calculated loads, built in big safety margins, and even once calculated frictional forces for a few gib systems and "scenarios". Having gotten older and dumber, I now regress to "experience" for my own work. If you set off down this road, 2 books are useful. _Knife Grinding and Woodworking Manual_ by Charles G. Monnett, JR is a compendium of knowledge from the early 20th C about cutter geometry, grinding, and moulder set up and principles. _Chisels on a Wheel_ by Jim Effner includes more theory for modern practice & pictures of modern cutterheads. It has many relevant formulas, if you can search them out in the chapters. A basic college physics text has useful formulae.

One useful concept to grasp is that the only configuration of cutting knives that is ever in perfect joint is a single knife head on a spindle with high class bearings. IOW, a single knife head is the "perfect" set up for best work. Except that the problems are balance, and feed rate for the work. Some other posters touched on this. The point is the number of wings is only to enhance speed of feed, and perhaps balance, it has no effect, or can have a deleterious effect on cut "quality" if the work feed speed is faster than one knife cutting supports*. Of course too much out of balance has bad effects and can be dangerous however many wings.

It is impossible for me to buy most profiles off the shelf since much work here is replication. I've used this project as an example many times in the past. There are something like 9 moulding profiles of various sizes, inside and out of this window & jambs. The profiles needed to be run on a shaper since most include both a straight run and a curved run. All were cut with one knife (except a few cut with a shop made 2 wing router bit) and hand ground profiles, in various geometry heads.

smt-router-copetooling10.jpg


Other work throughout the years before 1995, much including shaper work.

smt-router-copetooling4.jpg


Plenty of big mouldings have been run over the years, but I have hesitated to post them because the single knife, non-corrugated heads could be an issue without experience and baseline references. I'd hate to seem blase about saying "here, this works for me all the time, just try it" Like any craft, there is a lot of subtlety, nicety, quondam calculation, and practice that are not obvious.

This used to be a good seller to other shops for kitchen bulkheads (behind the planes & section of 1860's US Treasury floor)

plane1.jpg


Another crown version.

smt_Whitcombblaisdell38.jpg


If there is any summary here, it is that cutterhead choice depends on work and purpose. Grinding profiles is accessible and easy with a small amount of practice and good wheel choices and dressing. The choices to start might be one of the Euro kits because they are designed for shapers and with safety in mind. Or a set of conventional slip collars with a lock edge feature and ball bearing. Or appropriate size moulder heads bushed to suit. Beyond that, get a Charles GG Schmidt catalog, http://www.cggschmidt.com/ and preferably some industrial catalogs such as Yates http://www.yatesamerican.com/tooling.html for examples. The books mentioned would be valuable if the notion strikes anyone to "roll their own".

Shapers are dangerous machines. Besides cutterhead theory, there is a ton of stuff to learn just about set-up and guarding. I trust everyone knows at a minimum that contour work requires a starting pin. Instruction would be ideal. Full guides and fencing are even better than a starting pin. Whenever a feeder can be used, it probably should be. Carry boards are effective patterns and safety enhancers. Feeders can be used a lot more than might first seem probable. Sometimes that takes adaptation and modification, too.

There is not much out there on the use of shapers. _Shaper Handbook_ by Eric Stephenson is a good basic text & overview of the subject, and it promotes safe work practice. Almost nothing on the use of feeders, though, except that they exist. Still, not a waste of money for review and reminders even for advanced operators.

:)

smt

*Industrial multi-wing heads are made for high speed feedrates, are installed on taper spindles, or have hydroloc collar or other centering systems, and are jointed to profile right on the machine under dynamic conditions.
 
Last edited:
Stephen Thomas mentioned that shapers are dangerous. Hell, yeah! Be sure about eveything: workpiece support and clearance, fences down tight, dust collector ready, and operator state of mind.

The first time I had to face mold a curved section of 3-1/2" wide casing, I was all set up and ready to go, until I turned on the shaper. When that big cutterhead started humming, I shut it down and went back upstairs to think about it. Only when I was sure I was ready for it did I go back to the shop.

It came out fine, but it was truly a sphincter-tightening experience!
 
I made my living with a shaper. [entry doors] Big cutters are scary. Most cuts I would not want to do without a feeder. Bob
 
Shapers scary? Yeah. Big cutterheads scary? Yeah. I still occasionally run old slotted steel knives on square heads on my Mattison 276 moulder, usually profiling on the bottom head. When you are at the feed end and feel the wind coming off of the bottom head at the far end of the machine when you turn it on, there's a real "full experience of life" moment.

Stephen, you've reminded me that I have yet to get a copy of the Monnett book. "Chisels" has been on my shelf for a decade, I also reccomend it. Very good read.

Another much older text for those interested is W. H Rohr's Modern Shaper Practice. Cutterhead technology has changed since then and some of the techniques are only for those who are experienced at total disregard for life but other's (to me) were brilliant and worth a try.

Dan
 
Lets talk about spacers, bearings, bushings, and spindles.

For bushes, should I be fabricating bushings that are the entire width of each cutter or can an "L" bush at the top and bottom suffice?

For spacers, I see from the photos SMT posted (thanks for the write-up) that he spaces the entire spindle to the top. Is that just habit of shop orginization, looking for added mass or just protection of the spindle threads?

For bearings, anything special here? My shaper is 7000 RPM, so that fits well within most off shelf bearings, so long as bore is ok all is good?

For spindle, I am thinking about making one, wondering if untreated 4140 is enough? I know SMT had a write-up somewhere on the subject, maybe this will spur him finding that and the photos, but lacking a good treat oven I am wondering if I can avoid it. Also, the spindle nut that came on the machine is bronze. At first I thought it was weird, but with the acme threads on the spindle it might not be so bad. What would be the recommendation for the new spindle? Stick with bronze and acme or something else?

Jeff
 
First off, for clarity's sake in this discussion, lets call the removeable piece an arbor, the spindle will be the permanent part of the machine. Uusually with a taper bore, or some other way of locating the arbors.

The spacers go to the top because most arbors have only 1 to 1-1/2" of threads. No need for more if you use spacers. And acme threads are not necessary, nor is a bronze nut. You should have 2 nuts, so you can reverse the machine.

I made arbors for my german Schneider shaper from 4140 pre-hard. Had I known about it then, might have used 1144 stress-proof, that should be fine also. I think you'd be fine shrinking a sleeve onto your 1-1/8" arbor if you don't want to make up a new one. That's what is did at first with my metric spindle. On the other hand if you make a 1-1/4, you can turn down the 1-1/8" to 3/4", which will allow you to use smaller, cheaper, easily available cutters.

IMHO, the most important thing is that the arbor have as little runout as possible, and be properly sized. I'd go for 1.2495" to avoid any slop on the bores of the cutterheads. To minimize runout, I turned down my arbors to within .010, then mounted and indicated them. You can't assume that the taper bore or whatever in the spindle is true, gotta correct for that. Make register marks to relocate arbors in the spindle. Then I recut and/or lapped the centers on the arbor ends til they duplicated those numbers when mounted between centers on the lathe. Then turned down to a thou over, rechecked, and then lapped to final size. I made an adjustable external lap from alum with a copper sleeve, worked great, could work to tenths (as well as i could measure with my mics). If this sounds like a lot of work, it was, but I wanted my arbors to run as true as possible to minimize vibrations and optimize cut quality - I hate to sand! Got them to 1 tenth total runout, not really necessary, but a good exercise for a woodworker. But that was how my little twinkie SCM T-100 indicated, and it ran soooo smooth, so I shot for it. Made a 1-1/4", 3/4", routing chuck, and an extended 1-1/4" to use with an overhead bearing support

When I did this the shaper was a critical part of my operation, not quantity production work, but precise parts for high end studio furniture. I had indexing jigs for legs, and all kinds of jigs and fixtures with follower templates. Now I just make banjos, just use the 1-1/4"
 
Knives and cutterheads

I like lock edge collars, with freehand ground knives. Can use much longer and higher knives than the universal heads, and they allow nudging knives in and out for sensitive adjustment of the cut. I also use corrugated heads and knives, much safer, but only allow adjustment in 1/16" increments. That incremental setting was great for the sort of ultraprecise work I used to do. Whatever you use, be sure to balance them as accurately as you can. When we set up the machine, we'd just snug the nut down by hand, the knives should feel securely held. If not check for dust or uneven knife height. Then torque down the nuts, get down on the floor and turn machine on. If nothing weird occured after a minute or two (and it never did), then get up cautiously, relax(not really) and get to work. I have an apron made of 1/2" cdx plywood,made when I tried shaping brass and aluminum. Not as difficult to do as expected, but the chips are like shrapnel...

The universal cutterheadss are great if you don't need deep profiles. I made my own knife stock for mine from M-42 laminated jointer knives. Cut them to length, bore pin holes, and ground them freehand. M-42 is the best easily available hss stock in my experience.

As Stephen says, it's really only one knife cutting, but you can joint the knives if you want. Just take a cut in a big piece of stock, then fair the profile as desired, glue on some 120 grit paper, and very carefully pass across running knives. Then just barely grind off lands, hone, and voila!

For ball bearing rub collars, I use of the shelf sealed R-20 bearings (1-1/4" id) I made up a bunch of aluminum press on collars, a 1-1/4" arbor to hold in the adjust-tru chuck, and turn the od's as needed. Before insert heads, we had to re-size the rub collars after having a head sharpened. You can also use dead collars attached to the machine table, sort of like router template followers.

When I have some spare time, I'll take and post pix of some of the heads I've made, and the ones I like to use. For me the shaper is one of the most versatile and useful machines in the shop, couldn't do squat without it.
 
I should add, I don't grind any of my own knives. unless you enjoy the process and have the time, it's hard to beat having a grinding shop cut them. They produce a very accurate CAD template for grinding/resharpening and the costs are reasonable, especially for shorter profiles. I run some custom knives that are 7" tall with a repeating pattern, would be difficult to cut accurately freehand unless you're highly skilled. Other types of profiles would be more forgiving.
 
Congrads, you will find a shaper a very versatile tool. Next get a 4 wheel, 8 speed industrial power feed. A feed makes the shaper safer, more productive and yields higher quality cuts. It allows you to do things that you wouldn't/shouldn't by hand feeding. You can take shallow climb cuts with a feed to avoid tear outs in noxious boards. Use extreme care when climb cutting. Never, ever by hand. You can cut with an outside fence for perfectly sized moldings. Change your shaper to a 1 1/4" spindle. Tee bushings work but introduce greater run out. Make setup jigs for repetitive items. Record how they are used. Setting up a lock miter set is a real PIA so is changing the feed over from horizontal to vertical. Got tired of that an just have a shaper dedicated to lock miter with two feeds. We have two other shapers left setup for a common function. The two shapers we continuously change are a SAC TS80 and a Gomad tilt with a specialized feed stand for running tall parts on edge. The Stegherr arch shaper has a horizontal spindle and built in feed system capable of tracking the work curves. Even parts with changing radius mixed with straight sections. No template required!
I started out with the SAC & a feed. Hand ground lock-edge steel. Two heads, one with ball bearing. It is pretty easy to do, just remember the safety limits on how far you can hang the knife out. Don't run very high RPM as you will find it hard to balance accurately. We have insert heads from straight, adjustable groovers, and adjustable bevel. We now use the same corrugated heads that our molder uses. Most heads allow two different hook angles so you can match the type of lumber being cut. We have a profile grinder and make plastic templates on the CNC router. We balance to 1/10 gram.
It is interesting how my view of what can be done on shapers has changed over the years. The Gomad is often used to make curved crown moldings. it has a maximum table opening of 17"! We turn out round architectural column bases and capitals using a one wheel feed to turn a jig, pivoting on a bolt. Have done something similar for crown moldings on store fixtures, full circles.
My point is: learn to use your shaper and many opportunities will become available. Be safe!
 








 
Back
Top