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Small CNC router spindles?

Luke Rickert

Hot Rolled
Joined
Oct 24, 2007
Location
OSLO
Hi I am building a small (1200mm x 800mm or 48in x 30in) cnc router for hardwood, to produce parts such as patters for castings for internal use. I am trying to select a spindle and the only experience I have is with very large spindles from my grad school research (12 hp) so I could use some practical advice. I am looking at ER20 and ER25 size spindles with between 1 to 2.2 kW, probably 300Hz.

I am trying to figure out how much of an advantage ER25 would be (being able to run a large diameter endmills such as 15mm or 16mm) and is it worth the larger and heavier spindle. Also if I am running those sorts of end mills I need more power to really make use of them which makes everything heavier and more expensive.

I am not interested in some junky chinese spindle and am looking at the German and Italian options such as Teknomotor, Elte, HSD. So that would be square body manual tool change spindles, probably air cooled. I would like something with tool holders but for the application really can't justify the added cost.

Any suggestions, advice etc?

thanks

Luke
 
You really need to ask this over at "The Zone"

see and see zone dot com
(This is childish that the forum owner won't allow a linky to the aforementioned,
hence the stoopid work-around)
 
If you are wanting to be able to cut patterns I assume that at least some of them will have some decent height to them that you will need to use a long cutter on. A larger diameter cutter with a long stick out or overall length will be much better than a smaller diameter cutter with long stick out.

The spindles you are looking at should have specs for maximum diameter and length of tool. Check those out and try to think of the type of work you want to do and see if it will fit. I use larger diameter tools like ball nose, lollipop, and other profile cutters alot, I'd want the capacity to use those.

I do not know if the difference between the 2 will be enough to justify. I assume that collets will be similar cost as well?
 
Thanks for the reply. The "zone" just isn't doing it for me. I am not really a big fan of the "Maker" hobbyist world, not to say some of them don't know what they are doing but too many do not. There is a rejection of professionalization these days that is crazy, it takes experience if not also education to know how to do things properly. Watching a few youtube videos does not an apprenticeship make ;)

Anyway I have considered the advantage of a larger diameter endmill when it comes to long stick-out, going from 13mm on ER20 up to 16mm on ER25 is a significant difference (it is hard to say exactly but the stiffness should be around twice for the larger cutter) It seems like adding a few kg's/pounds to the machine is worth that.

I can find very few reviews or experience with various router spindles. Is there a hierarchy of spindle producers? Should I be looking for or avoid a particular brand? say Perske? Given that it isn't going to be running all the time I don't suppose it really matters all that much, any good quality spindle should be fine. There are some used spindles out there but that seems like a good way to get a spindle that needs some new very expensive bearings. The large spindle I worked with back in grad school used a bearing set that cost 40k USD. Maybe prices are lower now but still high grade angular contact bearings don't come cheap.

Luke
 
I can find very few reviews or experience with various router spindles. Is there a hierarchy of spindle producers? Should I be looking for or avoid a particular brand? say Perske? Given that it isn't going to be running all the time I don't suppose it really matters all that much, any good quality spindle should be fine. There are some used spindles out there but that seems like a good way to get a spindle that needs some new very expensive bearings. The large spindle I worked with back in grad school used a bearing set that cost 40k USD. Maybe prices are lower now but still high grade angular contact bearings don't come cheap.

I'd look at Perske and Elte. I haven't used them, but have heard generally good things. Some of the larger spindles will run HSK toolholders, which can save a lot of time doing tool changes.
 
Not to digress, but what are the design elementds in your router? What kind of control will you be using? How many hours a week do you anticipate running? I would want to go with the ER20 to be able to use 1/2" shank cutters if I was going to cut some serious wood.

I agree with your take on the zone, it's so hard to find reliable info there. I wonder if you could get some decent info from the cnc forum at sawmillcreek.org. There seem to be some serious professional users there
 
I only have experience with the commercial grade machinery with a base price of over $100k new, so I don't even know what is on the market other than what comes on those. I have a Komo, it has Perske air cooled on it both 7hp and 12hp the 12hp can take a 1" dia shank tool and uses a SYOZ25 collet, the 7hp are ER25. The CR Onsruds that I was in charge of had either HSD or Columbo (sp) the 5 axis was water cooled and the 4 axis is 18hp air cooled. They were both HSK63F spindles. The air cooled had ceramic bearings in it and the install tech made sure I did a warm up cycle in the morning to increase the life expectancy. It was a 24,000 rpm spindle. I don't remember exactly which brand.

I personally would not consider a liquid cooled spindle on a machine unless it was required to meet tolerances or it was used in an extreme high heat environment. I think it was on the 5 axis due to a smaller overall size to reduce the size of the knuckle.

I had a pair of Busellatos as well and I honestly do not know what was on them, one was a ISO 30 spindle and the last one was HSK63. The spindles were the only thing we never had a problem with on those two machines so I never paid attention to what they were.

My current machine, the Komo, is a multi spindle machine so I am content with the fact that they are collet only, no tool changer. (I have 8 spindles I can use independently) If I had only 1 machine and 1 spindle, I'd have to have a toolchanger or I'd go nuts. I ran one for 7 years before I bought mine so I knew what it was like to use it.

If you are doing cycle times measured in shifts/days then the time it takes to change a tool is not really an issue. A local pattern shop has ran a pair of 5 axis routers for years without a toolchanger and it works fine for him. The patterns on his machines usually are on there for a week or longer running at least 12hrs a day if not 24. Both machines are 5x10ft table and alot of the patterns take up the whole table.

I typically do job shop work so I need multiple tool capacity or I wouldn't get anything done profitably. It is nice though when I am cutting patterns/molds that I can maximize the toolpath with different cutters so I take advantage of it.

Jason
 
If you are going to buy a high end spindle, why not get one with an air controlled capability for one of the standard tool holders? Pretty simple from there to have auto tool change.
 
Thanks for the input guys. I will keep looking at the options. It seems like an ATC would make the spindle a good bit more expensive (3x) but it would certainly add to the utility. This is not for production, really only internal prototype work and the scale of the castings I can work with in iron are rather small (shoe box size) so I don't need to make massive patterns. Still messing with manual tool changes and zeroing is not appealing.

When talking about an ATC should I be looking at HSK 25, SK/ISO20 etc? ISO30 is too big for this application but SK15 is probably too small and I am not sure about HSK 20.

thanks

Luke
 
I'm building similar routers maybe not "for a living" but close enough. If I may suggest, you should take a very hard look at how much you'll be using. If it's just for proto work, Chinese spindle may do just fine. Quality has improved a lot of the years and the price makes them disposable. Accidents happen and they'll take out a Fischer spindle as quickly as a Chinese one. A toolchanger will increase the price by a factor of 5 or 6. Great for production, just another worry for prototyping. My experience ( of some 20 years ) tells me to make the machine exactly for it's intended purpose - trying to cover "bases" doesn't work as well. A 3-4Kw water cooled Chinese spindle will work very nicely for most purposes. Most of my clients went down ( or up ) to 2.2Kw ones. The only failures were due to water leaks easily to fix beforehand.

I'm pretty sure you do not yet have a price for a "proper" :) German spindle around 3hp plus it's inverter and all the other ancillaries - it's going to be frightening. It'll not last longer than 100 Chinese spindle but it'll cost quite a bit more.
 
Thanks Alex
German spindles might be pricy but without the tool changer an Italian made spindle isn't drastically more expensive than the chinese options and I am happy to pay the difference if for no other reason than I don't want to mess with Chinese stuff. (they have a good collection of sindples here Sorotec - HF-Spindles manual) and as a business I don't have to pay the 19% tax. I do have a few pieces of chinese tooling in my shop and have yet to find any exceptions to the rule that you get what you pay for. There is just something disheartening about working with chinese made stuff, it may work ok but it doesn't feel right and generally has QC issues. Also it is going to cost about the same to build a good spindle anywhere in the world (bearing prices etc)so I might as well get one closer to home. We will see how broke I a by the end of the build but hopefully I will be keeping it all European and US parts. Getting into the fancy tool changers and yes things get a bit crazy price wise but either way it seems like the spindle cost should be appropriate to the rest of the machine. Meaning I can't see spending more on stepper motor drivers than the spindle for example.

L
 
Thanks Alex
German spindles might be pricy but without the tool changer an Italian made spindle isn't drastically more expensive than the chinese options and I am happy to pay the difference if for no other reason than I don't want to mess with Chinese stuff. (they have a good collection of sindples here Sorotec - HF-Spindles manual) and as a business I don't have to pay the 19% tax. I do have a few pieces of chinese tooling in my shop and have yet to find any exceptions to the rule that you get what you pay for. There is just something disheartening about working with chinese made stuff, it may work ok but it doesn't feel right and generally has QC issues. Also it is going to cost about the same to build a good spindle anywhere in the world (bearing prices etc)so I might as well get one closer to home. We will see how broke I a by the end of the build but hopefully I will be keeping it all European and US parts. Getting into the fancy tool changers and yes things get a bit crazy price wise but either way it seems like the spindle cost should be appropriate to the rest of the machine. Meaning I can't see spending more on stepper motor drivers than the spindle for example.

L

The spindles you see on Sorotec are squarely Made in China. The problem with the Chinese spindles is that there are a number of manuf/assemblers. You need to buy from the right ones and that's hit an miss. They're not shy of using one each others' logos. Bearings used be abysmal but that's not an issue anymore and they can be replaced pretty cheaply with FAGs. You're going to cut "hardwood" - the spring back there nullifies any pretense of accuracy from the spindle. Also, the last two spindles I bought off ebay were under 5um runout on the colet seat. ( Colets were pretty junky though.). The general "fit and finish" of the spindles is absolutely superb - they have substantial production and they have the money to buy decent equipment. As an aside, I frequently buy 3 phase electric motors from China - they're absolutely super. Best I have ever seen and I know electric motors. Again, you need to buy from the right manufacturer. It may well be disheartening by well, that's life.
My suggestion is that you should spend the money on making a good frame - that's were these projects tend to die. The rest you can keep on improving.

Best of luck !
 
Interesting information AlexO. I've always believed the Chinese could provide high quality goods if people were willing to pay for them instead of looking for the cheapest stuff available. But the question is how to identify the quality manufacturers without having to go thru a third party reseller like Sorotec, or others here in the US.

Alexo, can you recommend any Chinese or eBay suppliers?
 
Alex I am curious how you know all the spindles are chinese? Their producers would probably beg to differ. While the SRT spindles are probably Chinese, the Elte, Teknomotor, HSD etc anyway claim to be Italian. In Europe there are not the same country of origin rules as in the US but still they don't usually blatantly lie about it. It is just more a matter of omission so if they don't say anything it is probably Chinese.

L
 
Interesting information AlexO. I've always believed the Chinese could provide high quality goods if people were willing to pay for them instead of looking for the cheapest stuff available. But the question is how to identify the quality manufacturers without having to go thru a third party reseller like Sorotec, or others here in the US.

Alexo, can you recommend any Chinese or eBay suppliers?

I wouldn't dare recommend a particular supplier but these ones ( looking exactly like here ! :) ) seem trouble free. They are GDZ 80s and I believe they do a 100mm dia as well.

【USA Stock】2.2KW Water Cooled Spindle Motor ER2 22V 8mm 24rpm CNC Router

If you buy off ebay insist you are sent exactly what's pictured - there are a lot of "variants". The angulars inside are sealed and if you take the trouble to run them in properly and warm them up before each cutting session they seem to last well enough. I used Hitachi VFDs for a while but the Chinese cheap ones do as well for 24k rpm. Had no issues at 1/4 price.
 
Alex I am curious how you know all the spindles are chinese? Their producers would probably beg to differ. While the SRT spindles are probably Chinese, the Elte, Teknomotor, HSD etc anyway claim to be Italian. In Europe there are not the same country of origin rules as in the US but still they don't usually blatantly lie about it. It is just more a matter of omission so if they don't say anything it is probably Chinese.

L

Well, the short and true answer is " I asked the right people". :) Market is small here in RSA but I could ( a the drop of a hat ) buy the components and assemble them locally. Then they'd be "Made in RSA". As a German I'd love to encourage the German manufacturing. But not at 4-5 times the price. And if I remember my last BMW 5 series, it was utter rubbish. About the worst car I've ever had...
 
Interesting information AlexO. I've always believed the Chinese could provide high quality goods if people were willing to pay for them instead of looking for the cheapest stuff available.

Where do you think all my fancy Omron/Yaskawa/Panasonic servos or Inverters/Drives were made. Not in Japan, that's for sure.
 
I have a 1.7kW HSD spindle with ER25. It runs well, but not a ton of power. If you plan to use large cutters, you’ll probably need to take shallow passes to not run out of power. Step up to the ATC version and you’ll get into models that do have power for the larger cutters (in wood at least). The collet size is not the limiting factor.
Not sure why air cooled wouldn’t be fine.
Shopbot, Camaster will sell you a spindle I’m pretty sure. Also check out PDS.
 








 
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