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wood lamination for technical reasons: discuss

For some wooden components where large widths or lengths are required and "stability" & flatness are important features, lamination is often suggested. Entry or larger door stiles and rails might be one typical component where there could be benefit . A recent post in this forum under another topic states the concept:

....think hard about laminating the rails and stiles. That pretty much kills any warping or twisting problems.

A corollary includes:
its not much additional work, nor wasteful of materials.

It is a great technical topic.
I will comment later, interested in larger group experience & have to stop avoiding real work for the moment. :D.

FWIW, I have laminated thousands of board feet of lumber for lots of purposes.
I do not automatically subscribe to the first concept without a number of caveats.

Debate!
:)

smt
 
Lockheed "Diaphragms" for the single engine series of the late twenties / early thirties were an example. Sitka Spruce - purchased as quarter sliced veneer - laminated over forms - with scarfs not only staggered side to side, but also above and below centerline made a tough, light permanent "ring".

This one, quite far aft, supported the forward end of the empennage
 

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Not exactly on topic, but I have recently visited a couple of home construction sites where finger jointed dimensional lumber was used for vertical members. They were both the most plumb, level and square framing jobs I have ever seen - by a lot.
 
Gluelam beams are becoming ever more common over here, of-tern used in place of steel and generally have a great fire resistance rating in comparison too. Never had to price em though so i have no idea how the numbers compare, but building steel all has to be certified so its not cheap any more here at least till we leave the EU!!

Stability is a interesting one, as a kid my dad did carpentry as a side line, we were forever gluing up panels. Yeah it improves stability but you still want moisture levels as near to its final home as possible if you want great net stability. Its not a magic cure all.
 
Gluelam beams are becoming ever more common over here, of-tern used in place of steel and generally have a great fire resistance rating in comparison too. Never had to price em though so i have no idea how the numbers compare, but building steel all has to be certified so its not cheap any more here at least till we leave the EU!!

Stability is a interesting one, as a kid my dad did carpentry as a side line, we were forever gluing up panels. Yeah it improves stability but you still want moisture levels as near to its final home as possible if you want great net stability. Its not a magic cure all.

Gluelam beams are a perfect example. They are stronger and more stable than regular framing lumber and have predictable characteristics. Even some of the newest OSB sheathing has characteristics superior to plywood. Engineered lumber will play an increasing role in home construction as more smaller fast growing trees are planted and harvested to meet demands.
 
I sometimes wonder about the longevity of such products. I have some 1960s laminated furniture which has led a sheltered indoors life and is now de-laminating. How much progress have adhesives made since then? I remember hearing that the glue was stronger than the wood it was joining, but it now seems that in time the glue destroys the surface of the wood.

With furniture it's not much of a problem, but with the strength-giving parts of a building it certainly would be. Think 'concrete cancer'.

George
 
I was seriously thinking of making my own stave core stiles and rails for 6 panel interior doors in Sapelle. Then by chance my local lumber yard had a close out on 6 panel Sapelle doors. I bought them all for $30.00 each. Enough doors to do the first floor of my house and only a few need modifying.
 
Not so sure about finger jointed studs from a strength and stiffness perspective- trimmings seem to predictably break at joints.
LVL seems to hold some promise and like finger jointed material, the predictability of the material makes for a very tidy job.
 
Glued-laminated beams are the standard choice in the EU.
They are light and strong, and last "forever", as far as we know.

I don´t actually know the costs industrially ...
but they are surely about double what they should be.

No-one knows if the gluelam beams are actually good very long term, 30-100+ years.
It would seem likely imho.
Cold-molded boats have lasted 30+ years, and keep on doing well.

Properly ventilated wooden houses have lasted 1000+ years.

Epoxy glues are essentially a stable plastic, afaik, once cured.
And only break down in very high heat (200C+) or direct sunlight (cannot happen inside a laminated beam).

One possible drawback is damp/water.
Any common wood will rot if immersed in water. (Malaysian exotics apart).
Epoxy permits -very slight- water passage.

If a drip gets onto a gluelam beam, over time, it will fail.
If a drip gets onto a steel beam, over time, it will fail.

Funny story on malaysian exotic woods.
I was at Pangor Laut, honeymoon in 2012, one of the best tropical resorts anywhere.

Pangkor Laut Resort Package | Honeymoon Package Malaysia

They got reclaimed salvaged wood, to make the walkways, and sun-loungers at the back beach.
The sun-loungers get sunk/drenched at high tide.
No ill effects, over years.

So, I grabbed the sun-lounger to move it higher.
No movement.
I then grabbed it really, really hard.
No movement.
I could, finally, move it higher, by exerting major force.
The sucker was perhaps 150 kg in mass ! or near 400 lbs.

Don´t remember the name of the wood, and it is not exported or available in commercial quantities.
 
Stephen, when I wrote those comments I was particularly thinking about some screen doors I made. I wanted them to be flat, warp free and stiff. I wanted the doors to look like real doors and using real door hardware.

I had some of the nice heat treated Southern yellow Pine fascia board. The boards were wide and clear - really nice stuff. The heat treat process makes a very stable product. It doesn't glue well with water-based glues, but West system works great.

It was simple to lay out the boards, roll on a coat of epoxy, flip them all together and then weight them down. Everything was good and flat and you need very little clamp pressure with epoxy.

The next day I came back and sawed my big three layer laminated timber into the door part blanks. Then jointed, planed, cut the joints and had some pretty great screen doors.

They're about 2 1/8 thick with metal framed screen panels inserted. The doors still look great nearly ten years later and the owners still love them.
 
I'm a cabinetmaker and have done a lot of remodeling to go along with those projects. Finger jointed studs are nice to use, as they are always true with no bow or warp. On a different note, I remodeled a house that was 30 years old and they had spruce 2x10 floor joist, 15' long. Every joist had a consistent 7/8" sag in the middle. I ended up gluing/screwing a yellow pine 2x8 against each joist, using a laser to level them. Now it's probably the most solid, level floor around.

Jack
 
As noted in the OP, I've laminated a lot of lumber, mostly with WEST, over 40 years or so. Actually, in the late 70's it was with Phenol Resourcinal, but as soon as i became aware of WEST epoxy, that product was cheaper, easier to use, and more reliable. More reliable in the sense that temperature, application procedures, and clamping pressures were far less rigorous for a good bond with WEST, than they are for P-R.

Over the years I've also paid attention to the flatness issue. I don't buy it as an "automatic feature" of merely flat laminating a run-of-the-pile set of stacked boards. About 20 years ago when I moved up here from the Washington DC area, several small shops were making doors by laminating 2 pieces of 4/4 together to get 8/4 (or 6/4 for some interior) stiles and rails. What stood out was how many were warped. Much more recently, my wife was involved with building a new daycare center. All the interior doors were made by a shop that laminated the stiles and rails out of 4/4. The first year, every one of them warped, about 1/2 to the extent that they could not be closed. They were reset on warranty, some have somewhat "settled down", but to a woodworker, it is really poor construction on such a high end install. Besides the warping, they just look bad/cheap when open with a glue joint down the edge.

I've been a student and sometimes maker of pool cue shafts since the mid 80's. In recent years, the hot ticket has been laminated shafts. Many flavors. Flat laminated micro-grain in flat, random, or QS layup. Radial (pie wedge) laminations of various stave counts & either flat or QS orientation of the individual staves, and an interesting staved construction that when cut in cross section looks like a pin-wheel. Funny thing is, they all warp.

There are, of course, and as described by many above; huge strength, performance, and reliability factors that are immensely enhanced by laminating wood for technical applications. There are many applications where solid wood timbers would not be available, or practical, for use. Laminated beams, especially bent-laminated structural components could not practically exist today other wise, and the laminations offer performance characteristics far beyond traditional splicing methods for large timbers. The modern constructions are also far more conservative of material. Laminted lumber tends to be more stable in terms of joint and glue bond integrity. It does not always stay any more flat than solid lumber, and can be worse.

Regarding the flatness issue: If that is a prime desired characteristic, I remain agnostic the laminating automatically offers a better solution.

As Henrya notes, I have seen that 3 ply door stile flat laminations seem to work much better than 2 ply.

But for pool cues & doors, whether laminated or solid; whether the blank warps has more to do with inspection, understanding ("reading" the grain) of each piece of wood, and control of moisture gradients at the time of build. I am convinced that at least for those applications, solid wood provides an equal or better solution.

The downside, of course, is that it requires selection. Perhaps 10% of an already high-grade pile of lumber would be suitable for either purpose without laminating.

For doors, that works out ok, if you have a big enough pile and a large enough order. Select the best of the best for stiles, and cut them all. The ones that warp, cut in half to make rails & make up the balance such as the kick rail and interior rails from slightly lesser stock in the pile. Convert the "almost good enough" material into jamb stock. Resaw the rest for panels. Use the off-rips and balance for mouldings. Some won't convert - it may have spectacular figure or "character" not really suitable for a stable door - add that to the cabinet stock pile for another project. Alternately, some of the "less than ideal" stuff can be resawn and laminated to make parts where the edge won't be seen such as wide kick- or lock- rails, even some panels, etc.

But you have to be looking, thinking, and in to some extent be lucky :) with either system the whole way through.

I do think that for a routine commercial product, doors are pretty reliably made by stave construction of the stiles and rails with a thick solid wood face veneer each side. Stave meaning relatively thin (1/4" - 1/2"?) layers on edge across the width of the stile blanks. In that case is actually is possible to use somewwhat lesser material even including pin knots and such for the cores. They should not be mixed flat vs QS though, or they will telegraph through thin veneers, or stress and possilby fail the glue bond in thicker face veneers.

For a "few" doors in custom work, I think selection mostly beats lamination. (Unless the doors are curved, too)

smt
 
Stephen,
You supplied lots of great information to the readers!
Although I've made thousands of cabinet doors, I've only made a few interior house doors. I've use 3 layers of laminations on those with good luck.

When working as a carpenter, we installed a lot of factory made 6 panel doors. Most of those stiles were made with a particle board core with 1" solid edges and 3/16" solid faces. If they were flat when new, they seemed to stay that way. The exceptions and warranty call-backs were typically doors that had different heat/humidity on opposing sides. (furnace rooms, unheated rooms, etc.)

Jack
 
Hi Stephen,

I've always run into this problem trying to explain to students and now production managers & superintendents why wood moves. In a plant that makes 16,000 cabinet doors a day you can imagine the amount of warped material we come across.

As far as stability of a lamination, there are three criteria for success. First is that the lamination is balanced to the center. Yes, typically an odd number of laminations will work the best, as long as every lamination other than the center one has a perfect match as far as composition and thickness. Second and just as important is the moisture content. If the material is laminated with stuffs that are not at equilibrium to their environment then you're only asking it to move later. Finally and this matters more in thicker layers is grain direction and orientation. Wood as it dries tries to straighten out it's growth ring, IE make it a straight line and not a curve. You also have all kinds of tensions in wood from a tree reacting to its environment in an attempt to stay vertical. Even straight trees have this. Finally is the orthotropic shrinkage of wood. Tangential is the greateds followed by radial which is usually 1/2 the rate of tangential. Longitudinal is so small it's almost non existant. QS lumber is not "more stable" it just took the dimension that moves the most, tangential shrinkage, and put it in the smallest dimension on a board, thickness.

A successful lamination takes all this into account.

My wood composites professor explained to us why all these laminated products were so successful. In reality a perfect solid wood 2x4 or clear piece of plywood would be superior to a laminated one. The difference was in the bell curve of strength variation. With a laminated product you had a +/- 5% variation for example vs a 20% or more for a product.

Dan
 
I own a silly contemporary house built in 1970. The laminated fir beams extend out of the house and cantilever out to support the deck. In the 70's they thought they were smarter than the Dead Guys that built old houses and did not need flashing. Well, the Dead Guys were right. Many similar houses lose their decks entirely from the [solid] beams rotting. When I demoed my deck, the top lamination came off in my hand, but the rot had stopped at the glue. I call that a win for the laminated beam.

Parts of the deck are 8 foot wide and supported by posts rather than cantilevered. Walking on the deck when I was working on the house, it squeaked annoyingly. Come to find out one post had rotted and dropped ~2 inches. Stuffed a piece of firewood in the gap to shut it up. So, beam supported by downstairs post, cantilevered 2 feet out picks up post supporting roof then another 8 feet of deck, and it barely sagged when the post failed. 40 years old at the time.

Same house has all old growth redwood window frames. Had 4 7'6" x6'8" aluminum sliders drafty as hell. Wanted to get something that matched, nothing obviously, and anything close[VG fir] was very pricey. Ordered some high end triple pane IGUs and built up some custom sliders, laminating 2x redwood and 1X redwood[where it showed]or Cedar. Sandwiched the glass [I made the executive decision that the door would have to be cut apart if the glass was broken rather than having removable stops] used Polyurethane construction adhesive and stainless finish nails to complete the lamination. They have not warped thus far, 7 years in. My bypass seal design could have been better but I am not sure it is any leakier than any factory ones I have seen.
CNC content: I designed a cute traversing system that involved CNC machining the pocket for the door trucks at a slight angle so the entire door slides about 1/2 inch front to back as the door is shut to push it up against the seals rather than drag constantly and wearing them out, or using a leaky brush type seal.
 








 
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