Wood planers - table rollers or not ?

Typically the best wood planers (single head) not only have table rollers but powered table rollers. And yet, supposedly one of the best, the Martin T45, has no table rollers at all. The advantage of no rollers is no snipe issues but the disadvantage is more likelihood of the lumber getting stuck.

I've read accounts of Felder owners frustrated at lumber not moving thru their table rollerless planers without slathering on alot of wax, but the Martin owners seems to be fine with theirs.

So, what is Martin doing differently...superior upper feed system? Or perhaps no one dare feed lumber thru a Martin that is not planed to perfection on one side first and the Felder owners are trying to feed lumber that is rough on both sides ? (or lumber that has been planed already but has some warp due to one side not being run over the jointer first ?)

Interesting question.

Fact: I'm not a wood worker, but I own 3 wood planers.

I cut down a bunch of trees at my shop, and had the local
bandsawmill guy make them into 2x's (as the sawmills weren't
buying)

So I bought a wood planer (a rockwell 13 x 6 school shop unit).
Then re-alized I should have bought the
newer (4)post style motor on top, so I could use long roller tables,
and not have to re-set them as the thickness changed.

So I bought a rockwell motor on top, 2 h.p. single speed unit,
as you indicated, no rollers on the bottom. And the rough cut
material stuck, badly. I don't no why they made these this
way.

So I bought a rockwell, motor on top 3 h.p., 2-speed, that
does have rollers peeking up thru the table on the bottom,
and it feeds well.

I chalk it up to rough cut, slightly wet (or green) wood.
But I also would like to know what I'm dooing wrong.

I suspect the Martin is running 2 feed rollers ahead of the cutter (serrated),
and 2 feed rollers behind the cutter (rubber covered or such) not just
one ahead, and one behind.

When in dought, buy a strait-o-planer, it'll feed anything.

The biggest advantage of rollers, especially in "industrial use" machines, is that the aperature remains parallel to the cylinder (cutterhead) over a longer period of time. Though rolls wear, too. I've seen old planers with 1/4" (oh, heck, might even have been 1/2" troughs in the center/infeed section of the table. I've also seen a lot of new machines (Parks, back when they were still brand new) and some imports with beds that were slightly dished as milled by big face mills, from the factory. The table rolls moots that issue, more or less.

IOW, rollers mitigate the wear & some manufacturing concerns on the tables in the area where the pressure is greatest & where parallel (non curved) bed matters the most: under the top feed rollers and the cutterhead.

Most literature I've seen (albeit cheaper machines than Martin!) suggest minimal roll height (under .005" above average table surface) or flush for "finish type" cuts.

OTOH, the cut-outs for the rolls tends to make a stress area in the bed casting that can leave the now 3 divided sections of the table subject to warping/moving somewhat independently, and from what I've seen, they do, more or less.

For home use/high end-low production custom shop, if the bed is truly flat right across, I'd be tempted by the no-rollers bed, _if it had urethane top feed rolls_ . It does take wax on a no-bedrolls machine, but not that bad. (I still sometimes use an old Belsaw for running short run custom mouldings).

As a perhaps interesting side note, there are some truly ancient lag bed machines. (one was advertised here on PM last year when i did not have time to deal with it). Wooden slat conveyor bed (like a dip chain gang rip, but without the dip) that could presumably be "dressed"/planed on occasion as necessary as it ran to keep it parallel to the cylinder.

There are also combination planer-sanders with rubber converyor beds, I believe, though have never seen one in person to clarify the feedworks.

smt

Never owned one, but my understanding is that Martin planers have rubber covered outfeed rollers that really grip the planed surface. But I think you're right about Martin owners always jointing the board before planing, can't imagine pushing rough lumber thru one. FWIW, the Martin users I've known raved about the machines.

stephen thomas said:

There are also combination planer-sanders with rubber converyor beds, I believe, though have never seen one in person to clarify the feedworks.

Click to expand...

Yes, this late model Whitney seems like the ideal situation...

WHITNEY S-205 SINGLE SURFACE PLANER - J&G Machinery

I should pay more attention to the NC State surplus list as I bet they bought that thing for nothing

Milacron said:

Typically the best wood planers (single head) not only have table rollers but powered table rollers. And yet, supposedly one of the best, the Martin T45, has no table rollers at all. The advantage of no rollers is no snipe issues but the disadvantage is more likelihood of the lumber getting stuck.

I've read accounts of Felder owners frustrated at lumber not moving thru their table rollerless planers without slathering on alot of wax, but the Martin owners seems to be fine with theirs.

So, what is Martin doing differently...superior upper feed system? Or perhaps no one dare feed lumber thru a Martin that is not planed to perfection on one side first and the Felder owners are trying to feed lumber that is rough on both sides ? (or lumber that has been planed already but has some warp due to one side not being run over the jointer first ?)

Click to expand...

I think its that last part you mention and then the actual purpose of the machine as used in the shop. One planer won't do it all. If you're surfacing rough sawn lumber, a machine designed for that will likely do a better job than a machine that gives super fine finishes. Also, take into account the volume of wood you want to process. If you're planing truck loads at a time you'd want something entirely different from a person who is making one off furniture and planing 100 bd. ft. each session.

As to the table waxing issue, I don't see it as a big deal even if you have to do it everyday. How long can that take - two or three minutes?

Finally, if you're looking to make it "nice", jointing one side flat first is the way to go. At least until you get into some kind of industrial production that accomplishes that for you in an in-line process.

henrya said:

As to the table waxing issue, I don't see it as a big deal even if you have to do it everyday. How long can that take - two or three minutes?

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I read a complaint from at least one Felder owner of having to stop and rewax every 10 minutes ! That would become pretty annoying. But then I don't know what they were trying to feed thru there and if one side was flattened on the jointer first or not.

Milacron-

Just caught your other post, this subject:

Quote:
Originally Posted by stephen thomas
There are also combination planer-sanders with rubber converyor beds, I believe, though have never seen one in person to clarify the feedworks.

Yes, this late model Whitney seems like the ideal situation...

WHITNEY S-205 SINGLE SURFACE PLANER - J&G Machinery

I should pay more attention to the NC State surplus list as I bet they bought that thing for nothing

Click to expand...

where you are concerned about the 25HP.
I can't afford to think about a machine like that. But if you can, just swap for a 7.5 or 10HP motor. That one looks like a generic off the shelf base mount motor with (presumably) a lovejoy type coupling, not like the older machines where the cylinder had the rotor built on the end and was part of the motor.

Considering a surplus machine with a lot of use, i don't know what provisions are made for bed wear from the conveyor; but my limited experience with widebelt sanders is that high time machines do wear the beds enough to make it an issue for "finer" work. Though the fact that the conveyor surface can be dressed in the machine mitigates the effects for a long time.

smt

Milacron said:

I read a complaint from at least one Felder owner of having to stop and rewax every 10 minutes ! That would become pretty annoying. .

Click to expand...

Dumb question....where is all this wax ending up ? on the wood ?

Does this affect the finish ? (stain/varnish)

stephen thomas said:

where you are concerned about the 25HP.
I can't afford to think about a machine like that. But if you can, just swap for a 7.5 or 10HP motor. That one looks like a generic off the shelf base mount motor with (presumably) a lovejoy type coupling, not like the older machines where the cylinder had the rotor built on the end and was part of the motor.

Click to expand...

Well, the price is a little bit of a concern as well....but good point...I hadn't paid any attention to the photos beyond the first one and had not noticed the motor was not direct drive integral/special mount.

digger doug said:

Dumb question....where is all this wax ending up ? on the wood ?

Does this affect the finish ? (stain/varnish)

Click to expand...

I'm sure it would effect the finish but I presume most surfaces that need planing also need sanding at some point, which would remove any wax residue. At least for furniture or craft purposes anyway. But if planing for house or boat lumber that will not need sanding but will need stain or paint, I suppose the wax could be problematic indeed.

I know from experience decades ago, even a hint of silicone spray in the air will blow a sprayed laquer finish all to hell...so I presume wax reside could be problematic as well.

On the original question - problems with flat tables. I have an SCMI 13" jointer/planer combo with a flat table for the planer part. I use it a lot and I don't think I have waxed it more than once a year in the 25 or more years I have had it. No snipe what so ever. I do have to manually support infeed and outfeed on longer boards tho, since the table moves up and down to adjust thickness.

Bruce Griffing said:

On the original question - problems with flat tables. I have an SCMI 13" jointer/planer combo with a flat table for the planer part. I use it a lot and I don't think I have waxed it more than once a year in the 25 or more years I have had it. No snipe what so ever. I do have to manually support infeed and outfeed on longer boards tho, since the table moves up and down to adjust thickness.

Click to expand...

What species of cellulose fiber do you plane ? I think red oak is esp problematic for residue buildup on the table surface.

Plain ol' Johnsons paste wax won't hurt in subsequent finishing. You put it on the metal and then buff it shiny. I wax mine when it stops feeding smoothly which is about 3-5 hours of use. No big deal.

I also see now that you are talking about big industrial machines. I'm not much qualified to comment on anything that uses a 25HP motor.

Milacron said:

Yes, this late model Whitney seems like the ideal situation...

WHITNEY S-205 SINGLE SURFACE PLANER - J&G Machinery

I should pay more attention to the NC State surplus list as I bet they bought that thing for nothing

Click to expand...

$35,000? You think they will get that sort of money for it?

High Point aint what it used to be...

The bed roller question has been well answered.
Also some planers have a quick adjust feature on the rollers so you can lower and raise them with ease. (both at once)
My 20" SCM planer has the rollers lowered below the table. I wax as needed. There is no effect later on from the wax.
All of my wood is jointed before planing and the bed of the machine has lengthwise shallow scallops that look like they were done on a planer (metal). The reduces the stickiness of the bed and holds some wax as well.
If I tried to plane rough or wet/green wood then it would stick badly without the lower rollers adjusted accordingly.
Think of it in the same way that you would a collet chuck on a lathe, hot rolled or other rough stock doesn't belong in a collet chuck. Rough material doesn't go through the planer....oh you can do it but it won't make you very happy.

Michael

S_W_Bausch said:

$35,000? You think they will get that sort of money for it?

Click to expand...

Of course not, read the listing more carefully Mr. Magoo.

As to wood species, I don't have a favorite. I generally plane hardwood, including red and white oak. I have probably done more maple than anything else. If the table is cast iron, as mine is, I don't really see how you could have much of a problem. It is pretty slick all by itself. The only qualifier I can come up with is humidity. I have always had my shop in a humidity controlled building, so I have no experience with the effect of high humidity. Don - since you are from humidity central, that could be an issue in an uncontrolled space. Otherwise, I don't see a problem with a "no roller" planer table.

Bruce Griffing said:

On the original question - problems with flat tables. I have an SCMI 13" jointer/planer combo with a flat table for the planer part.

Click to expand...

Aw c'on now Bruce...we know SCMI never made a 13 inch combo.... that must be one of those "Mini-Max" things

Well, I bought it new and I have lost the docs. It weighs a lot - I think about 800 pounds. It has no identification marks, so I have no way to verify one way or the other. My memory says SCMI, but I could be wrong. I am almost certain it was made in Italy tho...