What's new
What's new

Wondering if my Bid was too High??

Luke

Hot Rolled
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
Location
Nevada,Iowa
I have started a little hobby business. Not quite two years ago I purchased a building, have been renovating, updating service, etc. My goal was to have a small millwork shop. There seems to be a shortage of custom shops in the area and it fit well with having a day job. Since about the first of the year I have been handing out a lot of quotes, and now I am getting busy. No web page or even a sign up yet- word of mouth or a couple Craig's adds.

Lately I have been doing other work as well- just finished a eye glass store display cab (small) and have bid a couple cabinet jobs. One a pair of laundry room cupboards that he will finish (got the job) and 9' of uppers and lowers going into a wealthy farmers new 75x150 machine building. Here is what he wants: high end slides (Blum or Hittich), soft close hinges, reclaimed/antique pine over lay doors and drawers. 5 lowers, 5 uppers with a space for microwave and a cupboard above fridge. 3/4 UV ply boxes and the uppers would be finished flat on top so he could put do-dads on up there. Now, I can bid the millwork and be profitable, but cabinets is new for me. I bid $4600 plus tax with install being extra. As for competition in my area, they are gone, but I don't want to under bid the market. I got a price from an on line cabinet place (cabinets to go), a cabinetmakers web site that had prices well laid out, a cabinet maker who used to be in business in this town who charged by the inch ($13-15) so I bumped that to 15-20 since this was his price about 10 years ago, and an old standard of materials X's 3. I took all these prices and averaged for my price of $4600 plus tax. I factored in that I would be working with reclaimed pine- not virgin red oak out of the stack. So, I gave him a follow-up call and he said I was a bit high. He was hoping for around $3500 and later said something about 4k. Right now he is checking on a couple other options and said he may just go with Lowes hickory cabinets.

Luke

Cabinet making (kitchen) is not what I want to get into, but if a customer comes and asks for a quote, I would like to be able to give them a solid price to work with and I would like to make a profit. I don't want Lowes and Menards to be my competition. What he wanted was something he would not get at a box store and I have the shop, equipment, and skills to deliver. I don't want to drop prices to be in line with the box stores either. So, long story short, was I too high? I'm in central Iowa.
 
The short answer is "yes"

It was more than your potential customer was interested in paying.

It is also possible that he had a very unrealistic expectation/hope/desire/need to pay less than what seems to me to be a fair price. I don't live all that far away from you, so I suspect that the prices between here and there should be at least in the same ballpark.

And as someone who has worked with reclaimed lumber, I think your price actually could have been higher...understanding that since it isn't really your thing, you likely aren't trying to charge top dollar.

As for dropping your prices to compete with Menards/Lowes/Home Depot....you can't...no one can...not and make something that will last more than a weekend, anyway...so don't beat yourself over the head trying to.

There are those that understand what custom made means and are willing to shell out the nickles to get it. Those that would go to flat pack cabinets just don't get it.

It's like the old Harley ad...if you have to ask, you'll never understand.

Luck in the future

Mike
 
I am not a Cabinet maker by far! I have seen a good amount of cabinets installed over the years. I don't think you can be inline with the box stores and still offer custom built at the same price level. With the box store and there particle board, cheap hardware and maybe two screws and a cup full of glue. I think he's just trying to get the price lowered as most people try to do. Next time you talk to him if hes pitches the same lines, be nice but remind him that for your price he would be getting much better quality, workmanship, something custom built to his liking, and on top of it all supporting a local family business. Most framers are or use to be all about supporting local family shops and business. Last ask him if he would rather have something built to last, look great, and enjoy for years if not the life of said kitchen, or save a few bucks and have broken shelves, crappy hardware, and have to maybe replace doors, or even whole cabinets in a couple years? pay me now or pay me later type of thing.

Have to sell the quality. I do the same in electrical work. I can install a $.39 plug and have you call me back in 2 months due to it getting lose and not making good connections, or I can install a $1.15 one and never have to worry about it for years?

Just my 2 cents.
 
Last edited:
Bid your work to make some money........Whats the point doing the job for no profit? Don't bother trying to compete with the big box stores. You don't want that market anyway. Do a good job for a few rich guys, word will spread, you will be ok.
 
My price would have been around 6k for the job you describe but stuff cost a little more here. Maybe $500 less if no demo. The Blum under mount soft close drawer guides are about $40/pr. so your material cost is going to add up quick. Make sure your cabinets are constructed in such a way that they can be scribed in.....scribe moulding is for quitters.:) Home Despot sells Kraftmaid & they are your competition. The quality isn't bad but you won't be using filler strips like they do.
 
If the customer can't tell the difference between the big box store offerings and your stuff, then you will never meet his expectation on price or speed.

I haven't quoted any residential cabinet work in a long time, don't plan to do anymore, too much BS involved with it.

I wouldn't dig too far into it unless you want to get into that market. The other thing is you need more input, not just this one guy saying it is too high.
 
He needs to ask Lowe's what they would charge to make cabinets out of (his?) reclaimed pine.

Have you priced out the outfit that makes cabinet carcasses to spec, ready for your face frames? (I'm not sure if that's what cabinets to go is...) They're in FWW display ads, usually.

I'm re-doing kitchen at home now. Cabinets are pricey, to be sure. And we're looking at ones from your neck of the woods.

Chip
 
I've only been in Iowa since May 2009. I thought I was tight but not even close once I got to know my neighbors.

I don't mind by the way, just saying many people are tight with their money.
 
Excellent response, thank you.

Yes, more than HE wanted to spend, so for him, too high. He is a 5th generation farmer and certainly knows how to handle a dollar. I could tell be the tone of his voice that he really wants this. He was saying things like helping sand them and such to help get them for a little less and sooner. He should know that "you get what you pay for" and that settling on knotty hickory is not it.

I also work with a couple guys that know him. They tell me he is extremely meticulous and that when the delivery date is up, he wants it. It would be a nice job since he knows a lot of other wealthy farmers, but I don't want to be known as that cheap cabinet shop out on Lincoln Way. We all know quality comes with a price.

So, thanks for the input on my quote. I was worried that maybe I was way out there on the price, but it sounds ball park which is good to know.

Luke
 
Where do you ideally see yourself in 3 years? It's either a hobby or a business.....can't be both. If it's a business, you'll need to hone your bidding skills & take the jobs that show up on your front door. When I started out, I was out of the shop half the time during the first year doing patio covers, decks & the occasional fence. That wasn't what I had in mind starting out but I did what was necessary to pay the bills. I also worked for people I wouldn't normally talk to if I met them on the street. To be blunt, your (& I say this generically) biggest obstacles are believing your skills are a cut above your competition, it isn't necessary to pay your dues & business will work the way you decide it should work. AND schedules are important....do what you say when you say you will do it.
I don't know much about the market in Iowa but I do know a little about Iowans. I was married to one for 32 yrs. She & her family couldn't have been more different than Californians. Not fancy but sophisticated none the less, practical, sharp, respectful, friendly etc. etc. IF you could bottle midwestern values, you'd make a fortune out here selling it. Treat customers the way you'd want to be treated & you'll do fine
 
Where do you ideally see yourself in 3 years? It's either a hobby or a business.....can't be both. If it's a business, you'll need to hone your bidding skills & take the jobs that show up on your front door. When I started out, I was out of the shop half the time during the first year doing patio covers, decks & the occasional fence. That wasn't what I had in mind starting out but I did what was necessary to pay the bills. I also worked for people I wouldn't normally talk to if I met them on the street. To be blunt, your (& I say this generically) biggest obstacles are believing your skills are a cut above your competition, it isn't necessary to pay your dues & business will work the way you decide it should work. AND schedules are important....do what you say when you say you will do it.
I don't know much about the market in Iowa but I do know a little about Iowans. I was married to one for 32 yrs. She & her family couldn't have been more different than Californians. Not fancy but sophisticated none the less, practical, sharp, respectful, friendly etc. etc. IF you could bottle midwestern values, you'd make a fortune out here selling it. Treat customers the way you'd want to be treated & you'll do fine

I can't speak for the OP, but I can speak for myself.

I've paid my dues by serving my county for over a decade, and then working in industry for the last decade making everything from racing products to satellite components. I don't need some cheap-ass "gotta have it" farmer beat me up on price, or do work for my neighbor at half of industry rate in order to succeed...I need to charge enough to make a profit.

You do you, I'll do me. I AM better than the competition, otherwise they'd be making quality and I wouldn't be able to make headway. Competition isn't about letting yourself be ass-raped financially by an advantageous "customer" just so you can do the work. It's about making better business decisions than your competitor. If someone wants to be my customer, they'll pay the rate or fee I charge, or they'll go somewhere else and pay their fee. Either way, I run my business the way I need to to be successful.

I'd be a fool if I told the doctor how to do their job, and my customer is a fool to tell me how to do mine. Would this farmer like advice on raising crops? Or being told that his grain or sugar beets aren't worth the current contract, so he should drop his rate 15% so I can buy them from him?

I refuse to put myself or my family dead last so that a "customer" can feel like he got the best of me, when I give him excellent service and high quality on a deadline, for below market rate. If I want something worthwhile in this world, I have to pay for it. And so do they.

So stick "paying your dues" up your ass. This ain't a fucking country club, this is business. May the best company win.
 
You do you, I'll do me. I AM better than the competition,<snip> I'd be a fool if I told the doctor how to do their job,

So you hit the ground running eh Einstein? No learning curve with respect to your trade or developing business sense? That's paying your dues...take on a job you're not quite ready or equipped for, under/overbid a job etc. With your attitude, language & likely drinking problem I doubt that your business model is worth emulating. As to doctors, you are a fool if you don't question every move they make. Your life may depend on it.
 
Your customer wants custom cabinetry, with his special extra features, to cost less than standard off the shelf cabinetry. Pretty common, but an unrealistic, naive attitude.

I'm a metal worker, not in the cabinet business, but these sort of folks come along a lot. Before quoting a new project for a new customer, I always say that if what they want is available off-the shelf, they should buy it and save themselves some money. If it's close to what they want, they should buy it and have me modify it. If necessary, I explain why: the off the shelf people are set up for quantities of more than one, the design is done, the fixtures are done, economy of scale, etc, etc. If the customer gets that, then trust has developed and a real conversation can follow.

Personally, I resist quoting a fixed price unless there are detailed, scaled drawings available. If there aren't at the beginning, I can make them, but that's a separate job and when the drawings are done and paid for, the customer is free to take them to any shop they want, with no hard feelings on my part. Usually they don't go elsewhere (because I've tailored the design to my capabilities :) ) , but sometimes they do.

Starting out is tough. I took on quite a few jobs that kept me busy for not much money, which was appropriate, and eventually figured out how to make more: found a niche, better clients, sales skills and got faster at the work. 20 years later, most jobs are technically interesting, but I want some profit/respect too. I'd rather work on my own Diamond T truck/orchard/woods/house/art nonpaying projects than someone else's slightly paying projects. It's the luxury of having a bit more money now, and I think you'll get there too. Have patience and good luck.

Neil
 
Your potential customer was simply testing you to see if you were willing to give your labor away to get his business. He thinks that his contribution of material and labor is worth something to you. If you want to be his pal and provide cut-rate cabinet work to him and his family in the future, then cut your price to 15% below the Lowes price. He will be happy and you will sweat. Just my experience. Regards, Clark
 
I'll make this short ,you are $1500.00 to 2500.00 lower than I would bid. Reclaimed pine may not be easy to come by.I am sitting at my computer table now which is reclaimed pine. This particular pine boards were found in a landfill. I installed reclaimed pine boards in a home library years ago that cost me $6.75 bf.
I also used to farm, beating you up on the price is how this guy got to be wealthy.
Labor costs vary with location. Big city labor costs will be a lot higher than rural areas even if the material costs are similar.
mike
 
So you hit the ground running eh Einstein? No learning curve with respect to your trade or developing business sense? That's paying your dues...take on a job you're not quite ready or equipped for, under/overbid a job etc. With your attitude, language & likely drinking problem I doubt that your business model is worth emulating. As to doctors, you are a fool if you don't question every move they make. Your life may depend on it.

And you're a typical douche-bag fruitcake know-it-all Californian who needs to drop the doobie before making an assumption.

See how annoying that is? You're making a lot of judgements with no basis, just popping off at the mouth. That's why no-one outside of California can stand Californian's...you're all self-righteous & hypocritical, and we don't want that shit spreading like a virus. If you knew what the fuck you were talking about, Hollywood wouldn't be a giant sucking vortex, SoCal wouldn't be overrun by illegal immigrants, Cali's state budget would be balanced, and you'd know the difference between what actually works and what does not. California is good at a lot of things...pistachios, wine, plastic surgery, for a few...but everything else is better left to people who have their heads screwed on firmly.

Almost everyone else responding to this topic has given good advice and P.O.V.'s to the OP...except you. Again, stick it up your ass. If you won't take your own medicine, don't prescribe a suppository for someone else.

And only a fucking idiot wouldn't question their doctor...I said I wouldn't tell him how to do his job. There is a massive difference. Work on your reading comprehension and superiority complex before you reply next time.
 
5 uppers, 5 lowers. Some drawers. Meh! Not a full days work so a PITA.
Many (not all) wood workers and cabinet makers have a need to be perfectionist craftsman. Example is DBrown with cabinets with a built in scribe. (not that there is anything wrong there) Does the customer really care or even know what that is? Ask the customer if they want their drawers made with common dovetails, or the brads well punched. Answer may surprise you.
Not easy for someone starting out to balance their need to be a craftsman with their need to make a living. Once you pay your fixed costs and material there should be $ for your wages. AND $$ FOR PROFIT.
Millwork and casework are related, but not the same. And the only residential job I have done in the last 20 years was our kitchen. A kitchen big enough to require 3 full slabs of granite for the tops. Started cutting on a Friday afternoon and just after noon time Sunday I backed up my cube truck to our rear door. Wife helped me unload. Truck was full with one layer of base cabinets. All uppers and cabs with fin ends were sent to finishing the following Monday, delivered the following Friday.
 








 
Back
Top