CNC Setup jobs - that's all there is to it? (see below) tl;dr at bottom

[EdwinNJ]

Recently one of those quick 2-month courses on machining that the state offers for free through the federal grant. Covered all the basics of manual machining, and then moved onto CNC machining, where us 11 students had a Haas mill and a Haas Lathe and 4 haas controllers to play with.

Our teacher was a CNC guy who works at a dental CAD/CAM place, and has been doing CNC for 19 years. We went into the G-codes quite in depth for the short amount of time.

Eventually, we even got into set up.

Now, from what I seen, a lot of companies have different jobs, CNC operators and CNC set-up guys. The set-up guys make more money. I'm wondering whether we learned enough in the class to do that.

We learned setting up the vice and dial indicating it true (which you learn also on the manual mill), loading your part and indicating that true if needed (i.e., if it isn't squared-off), using the hand jog and an edge finder or the paper/shim method to set your work offsets. And setting your tool offsets. And obviously loading the program and the like (graphic toolpath function, or dry run at a higher z). and oh yeah of course power up and homing at the very beginning

Is there anything more involved in set-up? I was thinking maybe there's more, but in our book it shows exactly all those procedures. Plus, I have a little debugging experience; actually, the long and the short of it is we students got out of the class what we put into it, and I being a total nerdo really got into it and read up as much as I could and practiced as much as I could. Our teacher was giving us the chance to set up the CNC machine, but only some of us took it. Apparently from one of the previous classes one of the students told a company he didn't learn any set up in the class when they in fact did! (It was the same teacher then, too)

tl;dr
So, is there more a CNC Set-up job?
Power up and homing, setting and dial indicating vice and vice stop, setting work offsets, setting tool offsets and comp, maybe dry runs or graphic prediction, maybe dealing with a few settings (optional stops), loading the program.
Is there more to it than that, in terms of dealing with the machine? (I figure the company might make you set up intstructions on which dimensions to measure for the operator for SPC, but I'm talking only about dealing with the machine)

 

[Omega]

yeah, that's pretty much it..your good to go

 

[deljr15]

A company with good documentation usually only requires those skills. However the setup job requires the ability to adapt and understand why things were done the way they were.

 

[rainman]

Sounds like they only covered vise setups. There are countless other methods of part holding, and different considerations for each one.

 

[wheelieking71]

Most shops the "set-up guy" will also be responsible for first article. That means he has to make a good part. So, there's that.

And, even more shops, the set-up guy and CNC machinist are one in the same. I believe you will find much more of this situation, than you will dedicated set-up only.

And you learned 3 axis at the most, on what is essentially a very basic control.

I would stretch my neck out there and say, you now know enough to make an educated decision on whether or not this is the path you want to go. And, that is about it.
If you don't go get a job doing this right now, chances are you will have forgotten half of it in 6 months.

The short answer? NO! That is NOT all there is to it LOL. You also have to make good parts, no matter how good, or bad, the program is.

Setting an origin (which is what you learned) is the easy part.

 

[metalmaster10]

Yep, what they already said....

 

[pmtool]

You need to look for an operator job for now but in the interviews make it clear that you are interested in learning more and eventually become a set up person. Don't tell them you know how to set up and run a machine because that would be setting up yourself for failure. With the right attitude and some ability at the right job you will be able to move up into more interesting work fairly quickly. There is a lot to learn out there.

 

[Comatose]

Setup is basically a first article guy. Take a new program, which may or may not be correct, and the print. Get and set the tooling. Figure out the workholding. Dry run through the program, make a first article, check all the dimensions and tolerances to make sure that the part is actually to print. If it isn't, modify the program, offsets, workholding or whatever to make it be actually to print. Communicate what you changed to the programmer so next time there's a revision you don't have to make the same changes again. Make another part to verify your tweaks and fixes have it running perfectly. Document what you did and how you did it.

Then kick it over to the operators. Grab a vise and indicate, grab a blank and indicate, check your offsets, then press the big green button is the very definition of an operator...

 

[EdwinNJ]

yeah, that's pretty much it..your good to go

Hey I did ASK, didn't I?

 

[EdwinNJ]

Most shops the "set-up guy" will also be responsible for first article. That means he has to make a good part. So, there's that.

And, even more shops, the set-up guy and CNC machinist are one in the same. I believe you will find much more of this situation, than you will dedicated set-up only.

And you learned 3 axis at the most, on what is essentially a very basic control.

I would stretch my neck out there and say, you now know enough to make an educated decision on whether or not this is the path you want to go. And, that is about it.
If you don't go get a job doing this right now, chances are you will have forgotten half of it in 6 months.

The short answer? NO! That is NOT all there is to it LOL. You also have to make good parts, no matter how good, or bad, the program is.

Setting an origin (which is what you learned) is the easy part.

oh yeah, shit, I forgot about more than 3 axis. On the other hand, I've been told not a lot of places use more than 3 axis.

More importantly, where would I learn all that? On the job? Some place would train me? I should hope so, because I really don't think my local community college ever goes into anything that detailed, from what I've asked about the curriculum. In general it's hard to find good classes for manufacturing. Where are all the good classes besides the expensive corporate places?

 

[Comatose]

I'm a degreed engineer from a pretty good school. Classes are great, but all classes will ever do is prepare you to be trained. As an engineer, as a machinist, as an accountant, as a hairdresser, as anything.

You have to get your hands dirty and you have to be out there in the world for a while to see enough and do enough. There isn't a secret class or a secret shortcut or a secret handshake that takes the place of a decade in the trenches, no matter how smart or driven or educated you are.

Nobody, large shop or small shop, is going to say "well, we're going to spend two years training you on our nickel, then turn you loose." You start with a terrible scut job. If you excel at your terrible scut job, then someone will eventually hand you an even more terrible but somewhat harder thing to do in addition. You scramble to get up to speed with that, and then someone will hand you an even harder thing to do. And so on. As a new guy, if you're not being handed harder and harder things every year or so, it means you're not meeting expectations. But don't expect to be explicitly trained.

Just as a guess, you're about 24?

 

[EdwinNJ]

I'm a degreed engineer from a pretty good school. Classes are great, but all classes will ever do is prepare you to be trained. As an engineer, as a machinist, as an accountant, as a hairdresser, as anything.

You have to get your hands dirty and you have to be out there in the world for a while to see enough and do enough. There isn't a secret class or a secret shortcut or a secret handshake that takes the place of a decade in the trenches, no matter how smart or driven or educated you are.

Nobody, large shop or small shop, is going to say "well, we're going to spend two years training you on our nickel, then turn you loose." You start with a terrible scut job. If you excel at your terrible scut job, then someone will eventually hand you an even more terrible but somewhat harder thing to do in addition. You scramble to get up to speed with that, and then someone will hand you an even harder thing to do. And so on. As a new guy, if you're not being handed harder and harder things every year or so, it means you're not meeting expectations. But don't expect to be explicitly trained.

Just as a guess, you're about 24?

No, I'm 30.
I'm asking about classes, because, from what I understand, there IS "secret classes" that are really good and fast, and they're at the corporate places, in particular Cimquest. Initially , I got an offer from the head of the learning program I just did, where the company he works for is looking to train guys 100 hours on MasterCAM to work for them STARTING at $20/hr! Clearly, if they're willing to pay those expenses, such training is worth it for them (those 100 hours of class were going to cost them $20,000 per trainee!).
The problem with such training is it's extremely expensive and can't be paid for with student loans, so corporations only pay for it only with the best guys they can field in situations where they need it ( I didn't take it because it's 3rd shift).

It should be fairly obvious to the self-honest observer that our education system is greatly distorted by the current government-run post-secondary schooling funding model. It wouldn't be hard to imagine various levels of speed in schooling where people, or their employers, select where they go based on how fast they can learn. We could all see the split between the few techincally minded guys and the other guys in the class.

I know, based on the class I just took, that I could learn this stuff very quickly. Of course, part of that is that the course I just took was full time. 288 hours in 10 weeks. So of course such a system would involve 6 months to a year of working and then a training bootcamp. Which, again, is already what the big corporate places like cimquest do.

I don't think any of that is hubristic, if that's what you were implying.

FWIW, the scale of training most companies have mentioned to me is a lot faster than 1 new thing a year. I'm betting in general the whole industry is going to continue moving toward selecting technically minded capable, who can learn quick, especially with regards to types of thinking that are traditionally regarded as "harder" or more rare, in particular symbolic thinking/coding speed/abstractive thought.

Luckily, upon looking up my community college's curricula in more detail, I may have been mistaken, and there's seems to be a lot more detailed teaching. Not sure, though, the guy who runs the manufacturing program said something to the effect of "we get into the BEGINNINGS of 4+ axis programming", and plus they write the G-Code out on paper, which sounds totally stupid (in the program I just took, we TYPED it up in notepad, an element which I think matters because it focuses the brain in computer-thinking/button pressing)

 

[Comatose]

My bad, I'm sure you're right. Let us know how it goes.

 

[EdwinNJ]

My bad, I'm sure you're right. Let us know how it goes.

right about what?

because, if you had been paying attention, I only responded to your "are you 24?" comment, in particular with the assumption that you were implying that I was being hubristic. I never said you were wrong; in fact, I asked a follow up comment from what you said about there being no classes that will teach you everything, which implied a deference and acceptance of your statement.

so yeah, I accept your claim that there's no perfect class, but I don't think it's hubristic to ask for or hope that I might be able to find good classes where I could learn quickly.

 

[npok]

Your forgetting what these machines cost. As a newbie, ain't nobody gonna trust you to piss without supervision.

It's a long hard process to prove yourself in this industry.

 

[EdwinNJ]

Your forgetting what these machines cost. As a newbie, ain't nobody gonna trust you to piss without supervision.

It's a long hard process to prove yourself in this industry.

yeah, makes sense. Anyway my job is going to start with dealing with old screw machines. I figure I could prove some medal through some alternative means. For example, the guy talked about eventually programming some of the swiss screws. Most employers are underestimating how much we learned: we already learned G-Codes, and I'm a whiz at them. I figure I could draw a part plan and write the code for it as a demonstration. Not that that'd get me far, considering they're swiss screws and there are a lot more considerations to take into account. As long as he gets the idea that I'm not THAT un-knowledgable, like I just fell off the truck from somewhere. I mean it's funny, one guy at another shop I interviewed explained pointing at a lathe "that thing automatically feeds the bar and cuts it off so it can make more parts", it's like "GEE, REALLY!?" lol

FWIW, NIMS (National Institute for Metalworking Skills) has various tests to prove/show/certify your skills.

 

[wheelieking71]

right about what?

because, if you had been paying attention, I only responded to your "are you 24?" comment, in particular with the assumption that you were implying that I was being hubristic. I never said you were wrong; in fact, I asked a follow up comment from what you said about there being no classes that will teach you everything, which implied a deference and acceptance of your statement.

so yeah, I accept your claim that there's no perfect class, but I don't think it's hubristic to ask for or hope that I might be able to find good classes where I could learn quickly.

I think what he meant was: you come in here and ask a question. You get a couple good answers from guys that have been doing this for many many years. Then you proceed to explain how education works, and how fast you can learn this stuff.

FWIW, I have been doing this 20 years, and I learn daily. I learn something new every single day.

oh yeah, shit, I forgot about more than 3 axis. On the other hand, I've been told not a lot of places use more than 3 axis.

More importantly, where would I learn all that? On the job? Some place would train me? I should hope so, because I really don't think my local community college ever goes into anything that detailed, from what I've asked about the curriculum. In general it's hard to find good classes for manufacturing. Where are all the good classes besides the expensive corporate places?

Classes will allow you to get your feet propping doors open.
If you want to become a true "set-up guy" you are going to have to pay your due diligence. That means put in your time.
It takes years of on the job training. No, seriously, years. Not 2 months of night school.

Talk to your instructor and see if he knows where you can get a job where they will train you.
This is the only real way I know of to further your education.

 

[wheelieking71]

Most employers are underestimating how much we learned: we already learned G-Codes, and I'm a whiz at them.

Really? You took a 2 month course? And now, you are mister G-code?





BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!





I am not laughing to discourage you. But, you need to realize the difference between educated, and experienced.
That difference is HUGE!

Good luck to you. Be safe.

 

[EdwinNJ]

You get a couple good answers from guys that have been doing this for many many years. Then you proceed to explain how education works, and how fast you can learn this stuff.

No, I got a testy comment from a guy who wanted to play moral authority over the internet when he asked "I figure you're about 24?"

My response to that was narrow and specific to what I thought he was implying and was in no way a rejection of the original answers to my question. I was attempting to be reasonable and defuse any internet dickishness, but he failed at being decent and receiving that in a calm and polite manner, too.
I'll also note that I was nice enough not to report that post (or that part of it, anyway).

Let me just say that again since usually internet types love to pretend they can't read comments thoroughly, my response was not a rejection of his answer but very narrow and specific to his implying I was being hubristic with his "I'm guessing you're 24" comment.

 

[EdwinNJ]

Really? You took a 2 month course? And now, you are mister G-code?





BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!





.

Did I say that?
Actually, in that section of my comment I made a point of saying I just want him to know that I'm not like fresh off the truck. See?:

I figure I could draw a part plan and write the code for it as a demonstration. Not that that'd get me far, considering they're swiss screws and there are a lot more considerations to take into account. As long as he gets the idea that I'm not THAT un-knowledgable, like I just fell off the truck from somewhere.

That's literally the two sentences RIGHT AFTER the quote you're referring to as though it's standalone.

If you're going to keep deliberately misinterpreting my comments and play moral authority rather tan advance the actual topic of discussion I'll refer you to the forum rules:
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/cnc-machining/cnc-forum-posting-guidelines-158958/


So if you don't mind, please no more personal attacks and let's keep all discussions on topic