VF2-SS in garage?

[martin_05]

Talking about buying a new VF2-SS and stuffing it in the garage. It fits. Some disassembly required to get it in. No big deal, the Haas guys know how to do it (they told me about a VF2 going into a basement many years ago and having to disassemble the thing to it's bare naked essence).

Not getting through spindle high pressure coolant primarily due to power requirements. Also, not sure I need it. The machine will mostly do prototyping and small scale production when/if needed.

Anyhow, the question is about electrical power. I have one of these wonderful California track homes where they put in 100A panels. Am I in trouble? Can I run this machine or do I have to upgrade to 200A service.

I don't mind upgrading. It'd be nice to be able to start using it and schedule the upgrade for a couple of months from now.


Thanks,

-Martin

 

[eaglemike]

Pretty sure you machine is supposed to get 100a of 3-phase. Not going to happen without some help...... Not sure it really needs 100 amps, but still.....
Good luck!

 

[martin_05]

Just talked to an electrician. Upgrading to a 200A panel doesn't sound too bad of an undertaking. About $3K all-up including permit, hardware, all new breakers and stucco repair. He also said I'd be required to do this if I decided to go solar (which we are next year). Pulling the trigger right now. Sounds like a good investment.

 

[magno_grail]

Amazing what they want to put a box on the wall with some patch work.
I have a VF1 in my shop behind the garage. I only had to take down the mast to get it under the single car door (swing open, not tilt-up). My panel has a 100 amp breaker on each leg of the 220 single phase coming in so presumably it is a 100 amp panel. I run the VF1 off a 10HP 50 amp input rotary converter. The only problem is interference between the lathe and mill, may be a power problem but I just run them individually.
The name plate shows the current required (30amp for mine).
I would talk to someone selling solar to find out if you have to upgrade. They would be more inclined to say if it really needs it.
Not far away in T.O.

 

[allloutmx]

100amps of single phase wont be enough for your shop and your home at peak demand IMO.
Can you get 3phase?
I would dedicate a min of 200amp just to the garage.
Figure out what you will use to make 1=3
3000$ just to get the extra 200amp sounds bout right...but youll spend easily double that before you even turn on the mill.

2 years ago there would have been 30 people crawling all over this thread. What the hell happened to this place?

 

[martin_05]

Can you get 3phase?

No, I can't. No way to do that.

you'll spend easily double that before you even turn on the mill.

Definitely.

I need to get a phase converter, probably a rotary screw compressor and massively improve the lighting.

I have a little 5 or 10 gallon Craftsman compressor that has been fine for general use. From experience (I used to own a VF3-SS before the economy destroyed my prior business) you need to make sure you have good air volume and pressure. The spec for the VF2-SS is 4 CFM at 100 PSI.

MSC has this a rotary screw compressor: 80 GAL, 5HP, 3PH, 150PSI, 16 CFM for $3,267 after their 30% discount. I don't need something that big, I'd like to see if I can find a 3 HP model for less money. Kaeser has such a model but my guess is it is around $7K. I don't want to buy a used rotary screw compressor, the potential for trouble is hard to quantify.

 

[ducesrwld]

I looked at doing this over the last few years and have recently rented out some space in a building very reasonably. biggest thing I found regarding the SS machines vs the VF is the 30 hp motor is going to require a big ol' expensive phase converter. don't skimp on the converter and spend the money on it as you don't want any issues when you ask that spindle to put out 100+% of its potential. eventhough I was kinda set on starting in the garage once I added up all the costs involved to keep my overhead down I would have had several years of rent where i'm setting up now to breakeven. on a side note I've always wanted a loaded up vf2ss so jealous of you with that thing. I've got a trusty '97 vf0 that is going to get us off the ground.

 

[D.D.Machine]

you might want to do some reading about the new Haas Next gen control ,,, I had one for 7 months and made them come and take the machine back ,,, worst control I have seen in 35+ years of machine work ... There is a LOT better machines out there for less money and better controls . I changed over to Doosan and really like it.

I checked my 2015 VF2ss and it runs about 65 amp at 100% on the spindle .. if you don`t push it you might get by with your 100 amp supply

FYI
haas 30 HP machines only have a small 10 HP motor in them ,, they rate there HP like a shop vac

For air just pick up a Emglo twin tank 1HP ... I run 4 machines of one of them and it works great.. there made for the building industry and run for ever

 

[wheelieking71]

I have a VF2ss that has been running 4 years on the same three 30amp slo-blo fuses.
And, I am not afraid of the spindle-load meter. Just sayin'

 

[hanermo]

As wheelieking said..

What matters is power, ie kW, not amps.
We needed to run several machines, out of our demo park of 7, at the same time off a genset for 3 months.

We could demo 3 at once, with one cutting, off 50 kW.
Plus about 20 kW of building loads, ie aircon = heating (at 5 C) for a 200 sq m office, lights, pcs, everything.

The peak power required goes down about 10x, or to 10% - 20% of nameplate, if you adjust your accelerations down.
It is an easy setup parameter, any tech or more knowledgeable owner can do.

Ie accelerating the spindle at 100% takes about 1-2 secs to full rpm.
Peak draw about 30 kW.
Accelerating at 50%, takes only 1 sec longer.
Peak draw about 15 kW.

Moral:
You can easily run a VF2 sized machine with approx 20 kW of peak power, if about 10 kW is available to the machine, generally.
At 100 amps x 220 = 22 kW.

Of course you wont get fastest rapids and max cutting performance at that rate, but then You don´t need to.

Fwiw..
The euro models, at least since a long time ago, have very powerful spindle motors and axis servo drives.
No "Haaspower" stuff in europe.
A small DT rated at 25 kW iirc has a 40 Hp vector drive inside.

Was one of our 7 demo machines, first machine we sold back in 2011 to Sxxx.

 

[Matt@RFR]

I've got an '07 VF-2ss in my garage, running on a 200A drop through a 50hp American Rotary phase converter. (the phase converter is way too big... it was chosen to run more than the one machine) In our testing, during a 120% cut, the machine pulls right at 65A.

 

[martin_05]

I've always wanted a loaded up vf2ss so jealous of you with that thing.

My accountant said that if we don't spend the money we are going to have to hand it over to the IRS come April. So I said "F the IRS, let's buy a new machine". Makes me sick to have to make decisions like that. A good used machine would have been perfectly fine but given the choice to "burn" cash on a new machine and truly burn it handing it over to the government, well, I can make far better use of the money than they ever do. So that's how I ended up with making this decision.

 

[martin_05]

you might want to do some reading about the new Haas Next gen control

I think I read your posts on the subject in various threads during my research phase. Not sure what to say about it. The last time I ran a Haas was in 2009, when I had a VF3-SS in the business I closed down. I honestly don't know what to say. I don't think I have a path to consider any other equipment at this stage of the game.

Thanks for the compressor recommendation. I'll take a look at it.

 

[martin_05]

I have a VF2ss that has been running 4 years on the same three 30amp slo-blo fuses.
And, I am not afraid of the spindle-load meter. Just sayin'

Good data, thanks.

 

[martin_05]

I've got an '07 VF-2ss in my garage, running on a 200A drop through a 50hp American Rotary phase converter. (the phase converter is way too big... it was chosen to run more than the one machine) In our testing, during a 120% cut, the machine pulls right at 65A.

What size converter would you buy now? 30HP?

 

[Matt@RFR]

What size converter would you buy now? 30HP?

I'm by no means an expert, but I'm betting a 20hp would be fine. Haas power is a lot different than Horse power. I would also pony up and get a digital phase converter. The heat from my rotary in my 900 sq ft garage is great in the winter... not so much in the summer. Plus the damn thing pulls like 13A just idling. That plus the air compressor and the mill, get ready for some "interesting" power bills. If you run it full time like we do ours, you'll be in the third tier of PG&E's pricing schedule the first week of the month.

 

[martin_05]

get ready for some "interesting" power bills. If you run it full time like we do ours, you'll be in the third tier of PG&E's pricing schedule the first week of the month.

This is certainly getting interesting.

Today I had a meeting about installing a 40 panel solar system in my back yard. Enough power to run the shop and the house. About three times what a normal house would require.

Part of me feels this is getting out of hand. Maybe it's because I am cramming all the decisions into the last month of the year.

 

[martin_05]

I ordered one of these. Very quiet. If I need more I'll buy a larger version. I am impressed by how quiet they are.

California Air Tools - The Largest Manufacture of Ultra Quiet, Oil-Free & Lightweight Air Compressors - CAT-1C

 

[Lazyman]

Pre-Installation Information | Haas Automation(R) Resource Center

If you scroll down you can see the power requirements. It says 70 amps max load.

Martin_05, Please report how well 10 gallons keeps up with your machine when you get to try it. I have a smaller California airtools compressor and love it. I'm in the same boat as you right now pretty much trying to do everything in a month because of the discount. I'm planning on buying the 20hp phase perfect ($4600) plus $80 shipping. American rotary AD-40 recommended to me with the AMRRAD kit cost $3120 plus $280 shipping. The phase perfect will provide cleaner power and standby is just 200watts. It's a big chunk of money but the extra you pay over the rotary will save you you money longer term. I too feel things are getting out of hand when you just add up all the supporting equipment for the machine, rigging and freight.

 

[martin_05]

I'm planning on buying the 20hp phase perfect

We are living parallel lives. I was looking at the digital phase converters as well. I really don't like the idea of a rotary. Also, one is wall mount and the other takes-up much-needed floor space.

Yeah, it's crazy doing this during the last two weeks of the year.

Just learned I can't do the Super Speed option because that requires the side-mounted tool changer and there is no way to get the machine through the door with it. They have no way to disassemble and re-install it in a garage setting.

What the hell is wrong with Architects? Why don't they build garages with 10 foot doors?

Right now I am in finance company hell. Well, to be fair, they have so much end-of-year business that it takes them forever to get back to you.

-Martin