New Cam Software NX or Esprit

[cameraman]

a machine will not clean up a tool plunging into stock... :P

the surface finish issues we're having are with the LX160, forgive me for having a hard time believing that a machine of that caliber would be responsible for bad surface finish...

impeller roughing is fine, no issues there. the roughing issues are doing your typical everyday roughing of pockets, islands etc.

no, you're wrong about what i'm after in roughing, i'm looking for an efficient toolpath, that doesnt rapid retract a million times when its completely unnecessary, causing needless wear on the machine. and i'm looking for a toolpath that wont plow an endmill full bore into stock, destroying it. a plus would be a toolpath that isnt a total cunt to program, as it is, i have to split roughing into multiple jobs to get it to do what fusion can do in one... but that would be icing on the cake, first thing is to actually get it to work right and not destroy my fucking tools.

this happened in both aluminum and stainless.

^^^ Techtardedly not rotated properly.

I thinking more semi- finish before "rest machining" i.e. large clean scallops ^^^ If you zoom in semi-finish surfaces larger scallops but still very clean - that's just MasterCam on a VCU 500 5ax - Not the best machine in the world. [I'll find a better image of this part one Mo' - that one is not showing the surface so well on semi finish.

So,

I was thinking "Roughing" of impellers i.e. not finish-ing of impellers. [Not your LX].

SO WOW,

you are saying

causing needless wear on the machine. and i'm looking for a toolpath that wont plow an endmill full bore into stock

and...

a plus would be a toolpath that isnt a total cunt to program,

and...

first thing is to actually get it to work right and not destroy my fucking tools.

^^^ You don't want much do you... Sooooo demanding

So for the other types of parts ( prismatic ish / machine parts) -these are being done on the HAAS UMC 500 ?

I'm not exactly sure where Fanuc is on "Pre-emtive"(sp) collision detection these days; it used to be crude bounding boxes as the "Model" - On Makino (Fanuc flavor) control these days they have their own second computer on the backside to compute much larger models and fixtures real time and intercede - micro seconds before a crash. + Makino have retract strategies (for example multiple hole drilling) that are in more efficient arcs with appropriate acc and decc.

Camplete for example hooked up real time to a 5 axis matsuura has a real time "Crash prevention".

@Empwoer I know you're a fan of Camplete - offline too.

Kinda sound like to me that Hypermill relies on a lot of pre-figured templates and once those are "Built" for a specific production process then its all easy "to go" ? I wouldn't know as I haven't used it ?

HYPERMILL does have now (supposedly) much tighter integration with the Heidenhain control and tools and tooling definitions in a bi-directional way.

I thought the "deal" with HYPERMILL: trumpet - "Bum bum [SUP]baaaaaa[/SUP] - Clank." is that it is super "groovy" about minimizing gouging etc. I.e. the in-move moves/cuts are very "slick" and artful ? - i.e. very tool and machine "Aware" .

Stainless Hmmmm ahhhh but NOT impellers ... OK

 

[empower]

why are you attacking me like this? :d

lmfao......

 

[empower]

View attachment 298109

^^^ Techtardedly not rotated properly.

I thinking more semi- finish before "rest machining" i.e. large clean scallops ^^^ If you zoom in semi-finish surfaces larger scallops but still very clean - that's just MasterCam on a VCU 500 5ax - Not the best machine in the world. [I'll find a better image of this part on Mo' - that one is not showing the surface so well on semi finish.

So,

I was thinking "Roughing" of impellers i.e. not finish-ing of impellers. [Not your LX].

SO WOW,

you are saying




and...



and...



^^^ You don't want much do you... Sooooo demanding

So for there other types of parts these are being done on the HAAS UMC 500.

I'm not exactly sure where Fanuc is on "Pre-emtive"(sp) collision detection these days; it used to be crude bounding boxes as the "Model" - on Makino these dats they have their own second computer on the backside to compute much larger models and fixtures real time and intercede micro seconds before a crash. + Makino have retract strategies (for example hole drilling) that are in more efficient arcs with appropriate acc and decc.

Camplete for example hooked up real time to a 5 axis matsuura has a real time "Crash prevention".

Kinda sound like to me that Hypermill relies on a lot of pre-figured templates and once those are "Built" for a specific production process then its all easy "to go" ? I wouldn't know as I haven't used it ?

HYPERMILL does have now (supposedly) much tighter integration with the Heidenhain control and tools and tooling definitions in a bi-directional way.

I thought the "deal" with HYPERMILL: trumpet - "Bum bum [SUP]baaaaaa[/SUP] - Clank." is that it is super "groovy" about minimizing gouging etc. I.e. the in-move moves/cuts are very "slick" and artful ? - i.e. very tool and machine "Aware" .

Stainless Hmmmm ahhhh but NOT impellers ... OK

lets be clear, the collision issues i am having are not on the LX, they're on our UMC500. the surface issues with blades are on the LX, completely different roughing and finishing strategies. the 2 issues are different, but stem from the same software.

 

[cameraman]

lets be clear, the collision issues i am having are not on the LX, they're on our UMC500. the surface issues with blades are on the LX, completely different roughing and finishing strategies. the 2 issues are different, but stem from the same software.

Indeedy indeedy - I think we are on the same page there.

I'm wondering how many UMC 500 (HAAS) / HYPERMILL combos are actually out there in the wild ? *



^^^ Here's a better close up of what I was piffling on about - clean scallops / moves on an impeller. (MC + VCU thingy - smooth X control.).

____________________________________________________________________________________________________


* I know the control (UMC 500) is slower / lower bandwidth (than some perhaps) and you had to do some considerable point optimization in HYPERMILL to get things to "flow" better on the UMC, but in this case the trouble(s) you are having are with prismatic -ish parts perhaps ~ 4+1 moves like Tilted chamfering in a plane + edges ? Or just straight ahead 3+2 positional moves or just 3D contouring / 2 D profile contouring- fixed position ? + seemingly total lack of (remaining) stock awareness ?

?

 

[Mike1974]

lets be clear, the collision issues i am having are not on the LX, they're on our UMC500. the surface issues with blades are on the LX, completely different roughing and finishing strategies. the 2 issues are different, but stem from the same software.

Do you do alot of impeller work? Have you looked at NX for that, if so? I have never actually cut impellers, but the module for NX looks slicker than snot*, pick the blades, the floors, set a couple params and it spits out code (although again, don't know how well it does on actual maching)....

*No experience with hypermill so maybe it does this too

 

[empower]

Indeedy indeedy - I think we are on the same page there.

I'm wondering how many UMC 500 (HAAS) / HYPERMILL combos are actually out there in the wild ? *

View attachment 298115

^^^ Here's a better close up of what I was piffling on about - clean scallops / moves on an impeller. (MC + VCU thingy - smooth X control.).

____________________________________________________________________________________________________


* I know the control (UMC 500) is slower / lower bandwidth (than some perhaps) and you had to do some considerable point optimization in HYPERMILL to get things to "flow" better on the UMC, but in this case the trouble(s) you are having are with prismatic -ish parts perhaps ~ 4+1 moves like Tilted chamfering in a plane + edges ? Or just straight ahead 3+2 positional moves or just 3D contouring / 2 D profile contouring- fixed position ? + seemingly total lack of (remaining) stock awareness ?

?

pardon me if i'm wrong, but that looks like a flank milled blade, not point or tangent milled. we've been able to machine those with good results, the issue arises when point milling or using barrel cutters. which was the big drive for hypermill with their clam of being the best at it.

as of right now, the roughing issues are with doing non compressor wheel parts, all kinds of things of different sizes and shapes.
the problem is, when you enable 'high performance milling' option in the hypermill arbitrary stock roughing toolpath, it disables certain options that i need to use, but if i turn off high performance milling, it can do a full depth/speed/width cutting move right through the stock. in my mind NO software should even have the possibility of doing that, especially a package that costs $40k+...

so to reiterate: the roughing issues are with the typical roughing toolpaths, stuff you gotta do to be able to finish a part, any part.
while compressor wheels might have been the big part of going with hypermill, it certainly wasnt the only one. and being able to rough a part out is in my mind the most basic thing a CAM package should be DECENT at. as of right now, thats not the case.

 

[empower]

Do you do alot of impeller work? Have you looked at NX for that, if so? I have never actually cut impellers, but the module for NX looks slicker than snot*, pick the blades, the floors, set a couple params and it spits out code (although again, don't know how well it does on actual maching)....

*No experience with hypermill so maybe it does this too

yes, or at least that was the plan, so far not working out so good with all the surface finish issues...

as far as impellers go, hypermill has it set up very similarly, and its actually pretty simple to do it, just not getting the surface finish we're looking for. i do know now that our current suppliers we get impellers from, use NX. wishing we went that route instead now

 

[g-coder05]

When I started out in the UK people used to ask me why I have all these couches / sofas in my programming (Software Development) office...

(That must be frustrating especially with a young family ) - In my late twenties I used get up at 4am and hack out code + ritalin before the young kiddo's wake up. (when I used to work from home) - Then later when I had my office - Code dev. and patent roll outs - two packs of cigarettes - Ritalin and espresso machine IN the office sadly 20 espressos a day. - I don't miss those days- and probably explain why I started getting migraines in my mid 30s lol.

Yeah I ventured down that road. Doc says "here you need this to stay focused". That along with several of those insulated 1 liter refillable Big Gulp coffee cups always at the ready. A cott in my office closet to get a power nap when I would start seeing shadows. That stuff should be banned in every country.

 

[boosted]

yes, or at least that was the plan, so far not working out so good with all the surface finish issues..

How deep in are you? I think you need to give some time to rectify issues before you announce to the world "hypermill sucks". They are a market leader for a reason.

I'm telling you, I've used everything under the sun - not saying it (hypermill) is the best, but is is consistently top tier. The roughing strategies are not great, but it's also not one of their strengths. Once you learn how to configure rouging appropriately, it is 100% safe, just not very efficient. Bad surface quality on a blade is surprising, since that is absolutely a hypermill strength. Again, I've used most of the best softwares, and hypermill consistently delivers the best surface quality. In fact, the difference in surface quality (vs everybody else) when I fist adopted hyperMILL was so striking, that I had a hard time believing it. Your issues on the blade could be cause by a lot of things, and I would need to be absolutely certain before I blamed the CAM system explicitly.

 

[empower]

How deep in are you? I think you need to give some time to rectify issues before you announce to the world "hypermill sucks". They are a market leader for a reason.

I'm telling you, I've used everything under the sun - not saying it (hypermill) is the best, but is is consistently top tier. The roughing strategies are not great, but it's also not one of their strengths. Once you learn how to configure rouging appropriately, it is 100% safe, just not very efficient. Bad surface quality on a blade is surprising, since that is absolutely a hypermill strength. Again, I've used most of the best softwares, and hypermill consistently delivers the best surface quality. In fact, the difference in surface quality (vs everybody else) when I fist adopted hyperMILL was so striking, that I had a hard time believing it. Your issues on the blade could be cause by a lot of things, and I would need to be absolutely certain before I blamed the CAM system explicitly.

the blade issue is being taken care of, and not the biggest concern i have personally. the roughing stuff is what made me develop extra grey hairs over the past few weeks. mind you, this isnt just me rambling, these are issues their AE's admitted to having, me being right about.
i've stated that their 5 axis finishing toolpaths are incredible, no doubt in my mind that they are a market leader there, however there definitely are issues that i would not expect from a cam package thats damn near 50k.

 

[cameraman]

<sneep>

as of right now, the roughing issues are with doing non compressor wheel parts, all kinds of things of different sizes and shapes.
the problem is, when you enable 'high performance milling' option in the hypermill arbitrary stock roughing toolpath,

it disables certain options that i need to use, but if i turn off high performance milling, it can do a full depth/speed/width cutting move right through the stock.


in my mind NO software should even have the possibility of doing that, especially a package that costs $40k+...

so to reiterate: the roughing issues are with the typical roughing toolpaths, stuff you gotta do to be able to finish a part, any part.

while compressor wheels might have been the big part of going with hypermill, it certainly wasnt the only one. and being able to rough a part out is in my mind the most basic thing a CAM package should be DECENT at. as of right now, thats not the case.

-
-
-

it disables certain options that i need to use, but if i turn off high performance milling, it can do a full depth/speed/width cutting move right through the stock.

From what you described earlier / before that's kinda the impression I was getting in sort of more abstract way. I.e. One set of modalities that have been set up for you that essentially inhibit the other set of modalities you want (and possibly vice versa) but you can't have both. [As the software makes assumptions about pre-figured user case scenarios. ].

So to get what you want does a HYPERMILL rep/ technician have to come on site to create templates for you and your work flow ?

 

[cameraman]

<snip : all good>

Once you learn how to configure rouging appropriately, it is 100% safe, just not very efficient.

<snip> .

^^^ That's kinda what I've heard / impression also . Just very conservative / safe.

 

[cameraman]

Yeah I ventured down that road. Doc says "here you need this to stay focused". That along with several of those insulated 1 liter refillable Big Gulp coffee cups always at the ready. A cott in my office closet to get a power nap when I would start seeing shadows. That stuff should be banned in every country.

Hehehehe...

I'm ADD and dyslexic, so theoretically I'm "Street" legal.

Good for "Math/ deep math" (not meth) - but I do agree that "dosing" of "Children" is very crude and clumsy and causes a lot of problems. I don't drink or smoke anymore etc. and up until back injuries and covid the gym was the best for me to clear my head.

The "Trick " is to figure out how much dopamine you have in your head to being with - no point in wringing out a sponge that is wrung out. + with deep "Math / code" even the best mathematicians in the world can only do that for a few hours a day before that part of their brain is 100% wrung out*. The programmers that work for me / have worked for me I limit the number of hours a day they can work so that the best three to four hours in the morning of code development is not spent unscrambling and de-bugging - "BAD" code written during hours 9, 10, 11 , 12, 13 ++ The day before. Then have alternate "Grunt work/ no brainer stuff" to do for the second part of the day; similar arrangements with long time free lance programmers (Software development) - broker for their "Best hours" over a longer period of months. Sometimes a programmer will go full "Immersion" for many many hours when it's worth it. But I try to make that the exception rather than the norm otherwise you are paying a lot of $ for programmers to just "run the clock" when their brains are simply not functioning / wrung out.

+1 for power nap though - I think Edison did something similar in his Menlo park laboratory (sleep in a cupboard under a lab bench.).

Slightly OT but maybe not --- .

"Bandwidth" + productivity vs. Quality. ;-)

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________


* (Would be a good topic for an Off Topic / OT section if PM forum had one. )

 

[empower]

have a conference call scheduled for tomorrow with management at open mind. i'm hoping we can resolve these issues.

 

[mutiny]

have a conference call scheduled for tomorrow with management at open mind. i'm hoping we can resolve these issues.

Interested to hear what comes of it. How they respond to your concerns and frustrations may well determine whether I explore hyperMILL further at this point.

 

[empower]

Interested to hear what comes of it. How they respond to your concerns and frustrations may well determine whether I explore hyperMILL further at this point.

they are good people, have been helpful so far, but from my understanding some things are out of their direct control (volumill related issues)

 

[cameraman]

ESPRIT Vs ? NX VS ? Cont'

Continuation of Workplanes / vectors , tilted workplanes fixturing etc. Although slightly OT for what OP was specifically asking perhaps.

-

^^^ - Quick short video showing "Interactive Workplane Gnomon - ESPRIT® Product Highlights ".

That's "New" as of 2020 - not sure what they were doing before - so one approach maybe to compare to MC.

-
-

^^^ - Longer simple related tutorial on "Making a Single-Jaw Vise for Milling in ESPRIT"

__________________________________________________________


Can anyone explain exactly how FC (Feature Cam ) has been " Eaten" by AutoDesk ? (More or less ).

I've been to AD's website and also looked through older Feature Cam vids and then see on FeatureCam's options for advanced there seems to be some sort of shotgun marriage between Fusion 360 and FC. Not sure how Fusion 360 is or has been "Smashed together" with FeatureCam ?

Sorry I'm not "up" on that just asking really stupid obvious questions here to try and "Get it".


Feature Cam seemed really well designed , laid out super sensible and really clean.

IS the original development team in the UK and elsewhere still on board or have they left or are now out of the picture and AD is managing / maintaining / augmenting their code base ?

Is it an acquisition designed to smother or just a weird way to acquire some of their userbase and then "convert' former users to different AD products ? Or is it more of a licensing "model" issue also ?

 

[g-coder05]

Can anyone explain exactly how FC (Feature Cam ) has been " Eaten" by AutoDesk ? (More or less ).

I've been to AD's website and also looked through older Feature Cam vids and then see on FeatureCam's options for advanced there seems to be some sort of shotgun marriage between Fusion 360 and FC. Not sure how Fusion 360 is or has been "Smashed together" with FeatureCam ?

Sorry I'm not "up" on that just asking really stupid obvious questions here to try and "Get it".


Feature Cam seemed really well designed , laid out super sensible and really clean.

IS the original development team in the UK and elsewhere still on board or have they left or are now out of the picture and AD is managing / maintaining / augmenting their code base ?

Is it an acquisition designed to smother or just a weird way to acquire some of their userbase and then "convert' former users to different AD products ? Or is it more of a licensing "model" issue also ?

There’s a conversation in the Featurecam forum on the AD website where a discussion between myself and the managing director of manufacturing software Al Whatmough about the development of 360 and its integration with FC and Partmaker. From the gist of the conversation it seems that any new development is done inhouse at AD. It's starting to be a long discussion since it's a Featurecam forum and some prick from AD had to jump in trying to push Fusion within the first five post.

If one reads through the whole thread this guy Al inadvertently gives out some interesting info on the future of AD, Fusion, and FC. They have all but killed off FC in lieu of Fusion but just wont directly admit it. He even went so far as to say in five years Fusion will will be on the same level as NX! He was quite proud of that until I reminded him that NX is constantly advancing advancing also.
FeatureCAM 2021 - Autodesk Community

 

[jeffj]

He even went so far as to say in five years Fusion will will be on the same level as NX!

When an aircraft carrier, and the fighter that lands on it, are completely designed in Fusion, I'll believe it then.

FYI a new blog from Autodesk PowerMill, PowerShape, and PowerInspect Join Fusion 360 Family of Solutions

No mention of FeatureCAM, and Partmaker and ArtCAM are already gone.

If history is a guide, this does not bode well for PowerMill.

 

[empower]

Interested to hear what comes of it. How they respond to your concerns and frustrations may well determine whether I explore hyperMILL further at this point.

update: spent 2 hrs on the phone with one of the AE's and regional manager. surface finish issues are a priority and we have a gameplan on how to find a solution.

roughing woes i was told would be greatly improved when the new version is released in november, from what i gather, arbitrary stock roughing toolpath will still be there, but not much development happening there anymore, Optimised stock roughing should be a LOT more robust.
i'm hopeful/optimistic and anxiously waiting.