New Haas door interlock

[boosted]

FWIW there isn't any kind of contract your lawyer could draw up between you and the machine OEM to preclude them delivery a machine to you without the safety devices, no matter how much you promise to "Not sue in case of injury".

At both DMG MORI and Mazak we had customers take delivery of new machines with the logic modified so that they could have the spindle on with the door open.

You have to really want it though. I recall the approval process being long and arduous. The last one I remember specifically their justification was to have the ability to dress grinding tools in the spindle by hand.

 

[DDoug]

At both DMG MORI and Mazak we had customers take delivery of new machines with the logic modified so that they could have the spindle on with the door open.

You have to really want it though. I recall the approval process being long and arduous. The last one I remember specifically their justification was to have the ability to dress grinding tools in the spindle by hand.

That's good to know. However, Gene Haas's lawyer team might just say no to any/all requests.

Different companies perceive risk in different ways.

 

[Mike1974]

Thar's good to know. However, Gene Haas's lawyer team might just say no to any/all requests.

Different companies perceive risk in different ways.

Not to mention, the company may work a legal agreement to not sue, but who says the employee that gets hurt wouldn't try and sue their employer AND the MTB?

 

[TeachMePlease]

The last one I remember specifically their justification was to have the ability to dress grinding tools in the spindle by hand.

That sounds like the exact opposite of something I would say if I wanted a MTB to let me run the spindle with the door open...

Uh, y'know those safety interlocks to keep employees from getting too close to a running spindle? We need you to disable those... So our employees can get really close to a running spindle. And touch it. With gloves on.

 

[Hardplates]

My machines have all the safety features they need. A sign that says "Don't Enter During Operations"

What happened to the days where being stupid was supposed to hurt

 

[DDoug]

That sounds like the exact opposite of something I would say if I wanted a MTB to let me run the spindle with the door open...

Uh, y'know those safety interlocks to keep employees from getting too close to a running spindle? We need you to disable those... So our employees can get really close to a running spindle. And touch it. With gloves on.

It's not like their going to lick it.....

 

[ChipSplitter]

You guys are missing the point.

It's supposed to be a challenge. We have to do more and more with less and less until we can finally do anything with nothing. (Such as hard-milling P20 on a Tormach.)

You get brownie points for complying (I think...).

 

[boosted]

That's good to know. However, Gene Haas's lawyer team might just say no to any/all requests.

Different companies perceive risk in different ways.

Money talks. I'm sure HAAS could follow suite, and they probably already have (for the right customer). It's unlikely any MTB is going to modify the safety logic for one or two machines going into a job shop.

 

[DDoug]

Money talks. I'm sure HAAS could follow suite, and they probably already have (for the right customer). It's unlikely any MTB is going to modify the safety logic for one or two machines going into a job shop.

And how about when those machines get sold to the 2nd owner (used machinery) ?

 

[SeymourDumore]

Besides, are you a machinist or not? Make a key or switch to override them, then if you need a tech, take it out, disable it etc. It's not that hard.

Exactly the point!
Why having to disable or override something when there is a way to properly engineer it so it don't need to be fucked with?

As some IT people in the corporate world have already discovered, the more elaborate and strict you make your network access, the more keyboards will have
a comprehensive password list taped to the bottom of.

 

[Mike1974]

Exactly the point!
Why having to disable or override something when there is a way to properly engineer it so it don't need to be fucked with?

As some IT people in the corporate world have already discovered, the more elaborate and strict you make your network access, the more keyboards will have
a comprehensive password list taped to the bottom of.

I guess I am missing the point? I don't see any way they could engineer something for the best of both worlds? They don't want to open themselves up to frivolous lawsuits where some nincompoop grabbed a turning cutting tool, and we (not operators per se`, but actual machinists that understand things) do not want to be bothered with any(?) safety interlocks at all.

I get the setup key thing, but at our shop all the machines sit with the keys in them, so there goes that argument. Unless your shop is so well run you have to sign the key out or something... but then you are back to fiddle fucking around

 

[ChipSplitter]

The Haas keys are pointless. You can only go from "restricted" (setup mode) to "very restricted" (numbskull operator mode).

It locks out offset changes to a specific increment, disables program editing, etc., etc. (depending on how it's configured)

Not a interlock bypass key....at all.

As to using an edgefinder with the doors closed, that's insane! You must have something like 200/20 vision along with Curious George to clean your windows.


Probing has its place, but we have everything set up on pallets so we indicate edges very infrequently. But the occasional instance would be a pita if you had to keep the doors shut.

 

[SeymourDumore]

I guess I am missing the point? I don't see any way they could engineer something for the best of both worlds? They don't want to open themselves up to frivolous lawsuits where some nincompoop grabbed a turning cutting tool, and we (not operators per se`, but actual machinists that understand things) do not want to be bothered with any(?) safety interlocks at all.

I get the setup key thing, but at our shop all the machines sit with the keys in them, so there goes that argument. Unless your shop is so well run you have to sign the key out or something... but then you are back to fiddle fucking around

Well, Mori did find a way to engineer it properly AND to legally absolve themselves from the consequences.

Noone is really asking for a fully running machine in AUTO mode, but there are very simple ways around it to make it user friendly for setup or preparation work.
As far as the setup key being left in the machine where operators can't be trusted with making their own sandwich even ... well, I guess it's time for changing professions to say Walmart greeter?

 

[D.D.Machine]

if you just wire in a second prox switch and have it at the other end of the door opening it thinks the door is closed when the door is all the way open and if you need it to think the door is open to change tools just close the door a few inches ...

 

[DouglasJRizzo]

At both DMG MORI and Mazak we had customers take delivery of new machines with the logic modified so that they could have the spindle on with the door open.

You have to really want it though. I recall the approval process being long and arduous. The last one I remember specifically their justification was to have the ability to dress grinding tools in the spindle by hand.

Doosan was deathly afraid of ANYTHING relating to this, so they made it very tough. You really have to dig through the ladder to do anything and they're not going to help.

 

[Hardplates]

Every time I start to think about getting a new machine I see a thread like this. I would be bonkers if I spent over 100k and then had to put up with bullshit like this.

If it was me I wouldn't buy a machine with shit like that, that isn't disabled or easily bypassed. Then again I don't have a bunch of morons running around the shop trying to stick their fingers in running machines.

 

[DDoug]

As far as the setup key being left in the machine where operators can't be trusted with making their own sandwich even ... well, I guess it's time for changing professions to say Walmart greeter?

Yup, it's an OSHA violation.
If the inspector walks in, and see's the keys in the machine, and your not actively setting up.....

 

[TeachMePlease]

I have to get someone from maintenance with a special lockout (a plastic block that depresses a lever) so I can run the barfeeder with the top open, so I can diagnose barfeeder issues.

Corporate shop, corporate rules, it is what it is. My boss understands that it slows me down, but you gotta work within the framework you're given by higher up.

 

[Mike1974]

Well, Mori did find a way to engineer it properly AND to legally absolve themselves from the consequences.

Noone is really asking for a fully running machine in AUTO mode, but there are very simple ways around it to make it user friendly for setup or preparation work.
As far as the setup key being left in the machine where operators can't be trusted with making their own sandwich even ... well, I guess it's time for changing professions to say Walmart greeter?

And they will, once they've collected their lawsuit monies from you AND the mtb! Look, I am not advocating locking the machine down to stupid levels, but it is the society we live in, everyone has to be looking over their shoulder. You may think you have the best/smartest employee in the world, but that guy/gal loses a finger(s), and their tune could change dramatically. ESPECIALLY if it is not their doing and some other a-hole came over and hit spindle on or whatever.

I worked at a place where a guy stepped into a running molding press for a "quick fix", the guy running it hit the button to close the door, which started the cycle and he was crushed to death. Shit happens, no matter how stupid or illogical it seems.

I'm curious what did Mori do to make it safe, AND "workable" (not my definition mind you) that is easy to switch back and forth?

 

[Mike1974]

Every time I start to think about getting a new machine I see a thread like this. I would be bonkers if I spent over 100k and then had to put up with bullshit like this.

If it was me I wouldn't buy a machine with shit like that, that isn't disabled or easily bypassed. Then again I don't have a bunch of morons running around the shop trying to stick their fingers in running machines.

Yup, until someone does. Accidents happen, it's why it is an accident. A brain fart, or a little oil spot on the floor, a loud bang when you have your head in there checking something....

And if that's what you think about a new machine, well.... I guess everyone has an opinion. I can't think of one time where needing to have the door open and the spindle running was a problem, but all the machines I have used with interlocks had probing so it was a non-issue.