No power feed or gear changes on 1941 Cincinnati no2 horizontal

[Dope]

That same thought crossed my mind ! . Machinists with front of machine mentality. From front of machine it would be clockwise.

Need a guy with really long arms to reach around and work blind though.

No real update tonight. Topped off the hydraulic fluid and put the gauge on it. It seems to have broken (it's jammed at about 250psi) so I grabbed another 400PSI gauge. This one just oscillates wildly - I suspect it's for a pneumatic application. I don't have any hydraulic specific gauges that go high enough, so I've ordered a glycerine-filled one that goes up to 400psi. I did film the oscillation in slow motion and it seems to be maxing out between 300-350psi but who knows what that means. Oddly enough, I noticed that the hydraulic pressure drops to zero when shifting gears, then comes back up when you stop. Doesn't happen when shifting feed rates though, the oscillation continues the entire time. Strange, but could be normal I suppose.

Started machining a socket to fit the clutch adjustment nut, should be done tomorrow or Tuesday. I decided to mill the prongs into an old 35mm impact socket I had - what a mistake! My dividing head setup is not rigid enough to be cutting hardened material like this, I shattered a good endmill immediately. I found that I can only take tiny tiny cuts which means it's going to take forever. Oh well, seems like about my only option. Probably should have just welded some pins on the outside of smaller socket, that would have been far easier. But why do that when I can spend two days making a precision socket?

 

[Paolo_MD]

What about annealing it before machining it?

Paolo

 

[Dope]

What about annealing it before machining it?

Paolo

You got it, it's the last note I wrote for myself for tomorrow's work. I didn't get very far with the machining so that'll be step one. Probably should have just made it out of some thick wall tubing, like a non-idiot would.

 

[texasgeartrain]

Probably should have just welded some pins on the outside of smaller socket, that would have been far easier. But why do that when I can spend two days making a precision socket?

This had me rolling. Funniest thing I heard this weekend.

I feel it. Particularly if I'm considering posting it on a machinist forum. Do I want it to look like a gorilla with a hatchet and blow torch made it ? Or do I want to get done ?

A while back I needed something similar. Fixing an Aloris tool post. I used an angle grinder to cut notches in an impact socket to lay a piece of hss tooling in. Made like an animal so I could get done:



Now John Oder shows up to show how real men do it. Complete with threads to pull the tool down tight so it can't slip off, and a bored hole for breaker bar. Probably took him 30 minutes with a smoke break included :

 

[Richard King]

If it is running backwards I doubt you will have any pressure. I also recall many main pullies in the back had an arrow direction cast in them. It looks like someone had screwed around with that clutch with the burred up adjuster. Might be smart to just take it apart and investigate.

 

[Dope]

If it is running backwards I doubt you will have any pressure. I also recall many main pullies in the back had an arrow direction cast in them. It looks like someone had screwed around with that clutch with the burred up adjuster. Might be smart to just take it apart and investigate.

Mr. King, I agree completely. Once I've made my socket I'll use it to mess around with the adjustment, and if that doesn't bear any fruit I can use it to take the whole thing apart. I did fix the rotation issue and indeed there was a rotation badge on the pulley underneath 80 years of grime.

By the way, you're absolutely right about that door. I did actually pull the door to move the machine as it was a bit heavy (understatement) for my forklift and I wanted to reduce the weight. Nearly knocked over my engine hoist, that thing is HEAVY. The door alone probably weighs more than my little 10" chinese lathe LOL

 

[texasgeartrain]

You're still making that socket, aren't ya ?

 

[Dope]

You're still making that socket, aren't ya ?

LOL actually yes. I've had some jobs to get out the door so I haven't been working on the machine. I'll be back at it tomorrow night most likely.

 

[Dope]

Okay so, finally back at this again. Tonight's update:

Finally shored up the hydraulics. I had a hell of a time getting the overarm off far enough to access the hydraulics. It came off normally until the last 8-10" and then it basically became impossible. I used a come-along tethered to the Cincinnati 2MH that's across from this machine and it just dragged the 2MH across the floor. It took tethering it to my forklift and hitting it on the backside with a sledgehammer to get it moving. Couldn't find any sort of burrs or gouges or anything that would cause it to hang up like that, I suspect it just has never been that far forward and it may have gotten cocked somehow? Anyway, after two days I finally got it off and adjusted the hydraulics. Now showing ~310-315PSI on the gauge, and everything works much better. The clutch works great in lower gears but is clearly slipping in higher gears as it only runs 100-200RPM max (machine tops out at 500RPM).

I went back to work on making the socket to adjust the clutch, but even after annealing the socket it was still basically impossible to mill it. Even with the lightest possible cuts and hand-feeding, it seemed like something was flexing as the cutter kept grabbing the workpiece and causing a ton of chatter and vibration. I thought it was the dividing head flexing but it seemed solid when I closely examined it. I went back to basics and checked the X-axis gib (this is on my old step-pulley Bridgeport). Turns out, the gib adjustment bolt had somehow backed off - a LOT. It took ~6 full turns to get it back to reasonable adjustment. The last project I worked on, I remember a lot of chatter and vibration that I couldn't figure out - I think the gib had started backing out and all the vibration caused it to continue to back out. Turns out, the end mill was grabbing the workpiece and shifting the whole table on me. Once I had it shored up, I could machine the socket beautifully! Who would have guessed? I should have the socket done tomorrow.

Having said that, I realized I have no idea what I'm doing in making the socket. I've only ever used the dividing head for putting flats on things (like a hex head on a bolt), but in this case I need to remove the majority of the material at the tip of the socket, leaving just the lugs. Maybe it's just late at night but I can't seem to wrap my head around it. My completely amateur thought process is as follows. The socket is 1.900" in diameter, which is about 5.97" circumference. There are 6 lugs, and I'm shooting for ~.145" outside width on each of them (call it a total of .870" of the circumference remaining). That means I need to remove ~85.43% of the material or about 307.55 degrees worth of rotation total. That means instead of advancing the dividing head 60 degrees for each cut, it needs to advance about 51.25 degrees (307.55 divided by 6 = 51.25). But somehow the lugs are turning out to be just under .200" instead of .145". I must have done some math wrong or I measured something wrong. Don't laugh, I'm not a professional machinist, I'm actually a weaponsmith who uses machine tools to make absurdly huge swords and hammers. I have no training at all, I'm completely self taught. So go easy on me. There's gotta be an easier way, I'm thinking. Or maybe fresh eyes will make it obvious tomorrow.

That's about it for now. After I tackle the clutch adjustment I've got to figure out where the disconnect between the front and rear controls for the saddle axis is. Anyone got an exploded parts diagram for a dial-type No 2?

 

[texasgeartrain]

Working the math out on dividing head could be a good exercise. For a little bit of a cheat, did you ever pound out a gasket out of gasket paper using a ball peen ? I might do the same with a thin piece of cardboard over the shaft and on nut. Can't get a ball peen directly on it, but maybe use a punch or chisel backwards to tap out something like a gasket.

Use the new made gasket as a template to paint with a marker or paint pen on socket. With paint marks on socket, you should have an idea if calculations are correct with dividing head.

Use acetone to wipe off paint marks before posting pics and play cool like it was never a question.

 

[Dope]

Working the math out on dividing head could be a good exercise. For a little bit of a cheat, did you ever pound out a gasket out of gasket paper using a ball peen ? I might do the same with a thin piece of cardboard over the shaft and on nut. Can't get a ball peen directly on it, but maybe use a punch or chisel backwards to tap out something like a gasket.

Use the new made gasket as a template to paint with a marker or paint pen on socket. With paint marks on socket, you should have an idea if calculations are correct with dividing head.

Use acetone to wipe off paint marks before posting pics and play cool like it was never a question.

Hmmmm that sounds like it might work. And maybe a little caffeine before I try the math again

Thanks!

 

[Dope]

All right, tonight's update.

Finally got the socket machined. Just needed some fresh eyes and realizing that I needed to recalculate the cuts needed to leave the appropriate sized lugs behind. I had previously calculated it as if I were making one cut per lug, but they actually require two - one on either side of the lug. Once I realized that, and accounted for the thickness of each lug and for the diameter of the cutter, it came out great.

So, on to the clutch adjustment. I first tried turning the castle nut clockwise until it bottomed out, and then backed it off two notches. This left the clutch noticeably loose and seemed like it was only spinning the spindle due to drag in higher gears. In lower gears it wouldn't turn at all. Okay, so CW is loose. Then I turned the socket all the way out, CCW, and then backed off two notches. Now the clutch was super tight, so tight that the spindle ran with the clutch lever in the disengaged position. Couldn't even move the lever to the engaged position. Okay, so CCW tightens the clutch, but neither extreme makes any sense. In fact, if I tighten or loosen the castle nut all the way, it totally invalidates the use of the cotter pin, as it can no longer be inserted to stop the movement of the nut after adjustment.

So I figure, screw the stupid instructions, the correct adjustment must be in the middle of the two extremes and I'll just keep fine tuning it till the machine operates correctly. When looking at the assembly again, I suddenly had an epiphany. Approximately halfway between the two extremes, the nut would sit roughly flush with the outside sleeve. Then I looked at the door of the machine, with the instructions cast into it. It says to turn clockwise until "home", what a strange term. Could "home" mean that the nut is flush with the outside sleeve? Is it really that simple?

Long story short, yes, it's that simple. I turned the nut so it was perfectly flush with that thin outer sleeve, then backed it off two notches so that it protruded very slightly.

Stuck the cotter pin and what do you know, the machine works perfectly. Every gear is within a few RPM of its listed speed, verified with a tachometer.

I simultaneously feel like the world's dumbest and smartest man, at the same time. I don't know how on earth I could have ever gleaned that from the instructions in the manuals. I'm honestly completely flabbergasted by the whole thing.

Anyway, the only problem that remains with the gear control is that all the gears are off by one. The dial is simply clocked wrong, it displays the previous gear versus the gear it's actually in. I'll have to see if the dial comes off easily and I can just re-clock it. Or just draw a sharpie to the correct gear There's tool marks on the dial so someone has previously messed with it.

Beyond that, I've still got to fix the disconnect between the Y/saddle controls on the front and rear. The front hand control traverses the table, but the rear control does not. Power feed causes the rear control to spin, but not the front. I'll have to stare at some diagrams for a bit and see if I can find some likely culprits, and/or just remove the table and/or saddle and see what I can see.

I got some flexible acrylic to cut some new sight glasses out of, and I've also got to make some power feed stops (it's missing 3 of them). Oh and make some sort of hand wheel for the rear controls (both were missing). Never ends, I guess. But today was a huge step. Many thanks to everyone who offered advice. The machine is at least usable now!

 

[texasgeartrain]

Congrats on the progress and clutch adjustment.

In previous pics while shopping, reading and such. I never saw a handwheel on the rear controls, and was not sure exact operation. Just checking a specs book I see a hand crank like you might find on a knee, must pull off one to put on the other control I guess:



From this specifications book:

Cincinnati Milling Machine Co. (Milacron) - Publication Reprints - Cincinnati Dial Type Milling Machines | VintageMachinery.org

PDF:

http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2097/5076.pdf

Couldn't find an operations book, but another spec book with a few extra pages:

Cincinnati Milling Machine Co. (Milacron) - Publication Reprints - Cincinnati Dial Type Milling Machine Specifications Brochure | VintageMachinery.org

 

[Dope]

Congrats on the progress and clutch adjustment.

In previous pics while shopping, reading and such. I never saw a handwheel on the rear controls, and was not sure exact operation. Just checking a specs book I see a hand crank like you might find on a knee, must pull off one to put on the other control I guess:

View attachment 325240 View attachment 325241

From this specifications book:

Cincinnati Milling Machine Co. (Milacron) - Publication Reprints - Cincinnati Dial Type Milling Machines | VintageMachinery.org

PDF:

Service Unavailable

Couldn't find an operations book, but another spec book with a few extra pages:

Cincinnati Milling Machine Co. (Milacron) - Publication Reprints - Cincinnati Dial Type Milling Machine Specifications Brochure | VintageMachinery.org

I agree, everything I've seen shows a hand crank and not a wheel. I even found a company that sells old parts and they had one of the hand cranks for sale ($175!). The reason being, if you look at the two rear controls, they are very close to each other and a wheel installed on one of them, collides with the other (I removed the wheel off the front of the machine to try). Having said that, the rear control does not appear to have any provision to eject the hand crank during power feed, which I consider to be a major safety issue. I know I'm going to forget to remove it some day and it's going to slap me in the family jewels or worse. So I think what I'll do is buy a cheap smooth handwheel off of ebay and then machine an extended arbor to space it out away from the controls. That way it won't interfere with the other control and also it's far less likely to injure me if I leave it in the machine.

 

[Dope]

Okay new update, I took care of a few things, got the overarm back together after adjusting the hydraulics, added a permanent hydraulic gauge, made all new sight glasses etc.. Then I decided to tackle the saddle/cross/Y-feed control disconnect issue. I pored over a couple manuals between the 30s and 50s and found a little note attached to one of the instructional procedures for removing the cross feed screw.

A "safety coupling" you say? This seemed like a likely candidate for my problem. I found an exploded parts diagram in a newer manual and the safety coupling is right at the end of the cross feed screw, after the cross feed nut. Meaning, it would explain why I could move the table with the front control but there was a disconnect to the rear controls and to the power feed.

Long story short, I disassembled the cross feed screw and what did I find at the end of it?

Mystery solved! You might be able to tell, this coupling has a thinner section in the middle that must be intended to break in the event of a crash. I'd make a new one but I don't have any way of making those internal splines, so I'm going to send out a few feelers and see if I can obtain one from a scrapped machine. But honestly, I'll probably face the two ends off in the lathe, make a small spacer to bring it to the approximate correct length, and then braze it back together. I figure that the braze should be somewhat weak and should accomplish the same goal as the original. I'll build a fixture to line the two pieces up precisely for the brazing so it should work out okay I hope.

 

[texasgeartrain]

Good stuff, not the break, but the info.

Im curious, the two pieces. . .to either side of the break. are they slipping through a bore when it is assembled ? and are they a snug or even close fit to the bore as they enter it ?

I was just wondering if a sleeve could be made to go on the OD of those two. But if they pass through a close fit bore, then no.

Unless you were to turn the OD of those two down, lets say 1/16" and maybe half way up the shank of each. Then press the two halves together, with sleeve in the middle. Maybe use bearing retaining compound, or loctite on surfaces before pressing together.

Potential food for thought: if a sleeve could be made, depending on the wall thickness of sleeve, and what type of material, you might still have your "safety".

 

[Dope]

Good stuff, not the break, but the info.

Im curious, the two pieces. . .to either side of the break. are they slipping through a bore when it is assembled ? and are they a snug or even close fit to the bore as they enter it ?

I was just wondering if a sleeve could be made to go on the OD of those two. But if they pass through a close fit bore, then no.

Unless you were to turn the OD of those two down, lets say 1/16" and maybe half way up the shank of each. Then press the two halves together, with sleeve in the middle. Maybe use bearing retaining compound, or loctite on surfaces before pressing together.

Potential food for thought: if a sleeve could be made, depending on the wall thickness of sleeve, and what type of material, you might still have your "safety".

Yes! I'd much rather know what's broken than to spend hours and hours playing trial-and-error.

Unfortunately, it is a very snug fit into a bore so it may be a bit problematic to sleeve it. There isn't a ton of material thickness either, especially where the slots/splines are (whatever an internal spline is called). I agree with you though, it could work out, especially since this part really isn't intended to be that strong in the first place.

Having said that, I was contacted by someone who has a line on an original replacement so I may just go that route, take all the measurements from it and machine/braze my broken one as a backup.

More to come, hopefully you find my grasping-around-in-the-dark entertaining

 

[Paolo_MD]

I don't think you should be intimidated by the "spline": essentially, they are three keyways at 120°. If you have the correct broach, all you need is to make a custom guide with a keyway milled at 120° from the broach groove: cut the first keyway, insert a key in the guide to properly index it, cut the second keyway, and repeat for the third one.
If all you have is a lathe with a 3-jaw chuck, make a spacer between a jaw and the nearest way and lock the spindle in that position. Use the carriage as the ram of a shaper with a tool ground to cut the keyway. Repeat with each of the jaws.

Of course, if you find at a reasonable price the original part, it's probably the way to go.

Paolo

 

[Dope]

I don't think you should be intimidated by the "spline": essentially, they are three keyways at 120°. If you have the correct broach, all you need is to make a custom guide with a keyway milled at 120° from the broach groove: cut the first keyway, insert a key in the guide to properly index it, cut the second keyway, and repeat for the third one.
If all you have is a lathe with a 3-jaw chuck, make a spacer between a jaw and the nearest way and lock the spindle in that position. Use the carriage as the ram of a shaper with a tool ground to cut the keyway. Repeat with each of the jaws.

Of course, if you find at a reasonable price the original part, it's probably the way to go.

Paolo

That's a good idea, thanks! I saw Joe Piezynski do something similar using the quill of a bridgeport. The guy with the replacement part was only two hours away from me so I'll have it tomorrow. I'll worry about fixing the original at a later date, I'm anxious to make some chips on this old beast

 

[Dope]

If anyone is still following along, I have a random question. The machine has a one-shot oiler on the right side of the saddle, made by Bijur. I filled up the reservoir and pumped the handle, which is spring loaded. However, it really seemed like it had no resistance, if I pull it out it just snaps back immediately. Should there be some sort of resistance/slow withdraw on this? I can't really tell if it's actually dispensing any oil so I thought I'd ask what I should expect from using this.

I did notice that there was plenty of oil on the ways of the table (X/table feed). Didn't really seem like I was getting any on the Y/cross feed though. I'm gonna have to pull the table off, aren't I...