Haas Chatter

[Houdini]

We have 3 newer Haas machines.
MiniMill 3yrs old
MiniMill2 3yrs old
DM2 6months old

All of them show chatter marks in the X direction.

I have tried everything to eliminate it, We are getting ready to buy 2 more DM2's, But now I am hesitant.

12 years machinist shop manager, So not a noob.

First Haas machines.

Aluminum 6061 have tried the obvious machining adjustments, speed, feed, WOC , different tool holders, different end mills, different helix angles.

Are these machines just so shit that they cant do a 1" DOC .003 to .01 WOC clean up pass on 6061.

In truth I shouldn't be trying to figure out the problem because the fact that it only does it in the X direction on 3 machines shows it is the machines and nothing else, but because I have the machines already, I need to minimize or get rid of the chatter marks, and I cannot.

Anyone else running into this?

 

[Milland]

There's already some threads here on X chatter in Haas's (Haas'? Haasi?). X- or +, and have you tried doing conventional milling for a finish pass with a new, sharp endmill? It might get you over the hump.

Also, check out Doosan for the new machines.

 

[D Farms]

post your code, sometimes the post can put some weird shit in the gcode

 

[countryguy]

We recently took a really hard look at the Doosan DNM4500 also. The kid and I will agree that they are definitely worth a look. On our VF we Still need to get into the whole X- chatter thing one of these days too. We were one of the posts noting a similar issue some months back.

There's already some threads here on X chatter in Haas's (Haas'? Haasi?). X- or +, and have you tried doing conventional milling for a finish pass with a new, sharp endmill? It might get you over the hump.

Also, check out Doosan for the new machines.

 

[plastikdreams]

Interesting, I've never had an issue with chatter on haas...our 05 at work shows load spikes on x and it makes a humming noise but it doesn't leave any marks in 2024 surprisingly. I just made a part 2.000 high with a .500x2.00 4 flute TiCn endmill and it came out surprisingly smooth. I ramped down, not sure if that made a difference.

 

[DMF_TomB]

We have 3 newer Haas machines.
MiniMill 3yrs old
MiniMill2 3yrs old
DM2 6months old

All of them show chatter marks in the X direction.

I have tried everything to eliminate it, We are getting ready to buy 2 more DM2's, But now I am hesitant.

12 years machinist shop manager, So not a noob.

First Haas machines.

Aluminum 6061 have tried the obvious machining adjustments, speed, feed, WOC , different tool holders, different end mills, different helix angles.

Are these machines just so shit that they cant do a 1" DOC .003 to .01 WOC clean up pass on 6061.

In truth I shouldn't be trying to figure out the problem because the fact that it only does it in the X direction on 3 machines shows it is the machines and nothing else, but because I have the machines already, I need to minimize or get rid of the chatter marks, and I cannot.

Anyone else running into this?

.
Servo oscillation in Y and Z obviously can leave chatter marks moving in X thats
assuming the X ball screw is ok
.
Sometimes a "warmup" program cleans and oils the rails and also might clean
minor oil off electronic scales that is causing servo oscillation

 

[D Farms]

.
Servo oscillation in Y and Z obviously can leave chatter marks moving in X thats
assuming the X ball screw is ok
.
Sometimes a "warmup" program cleans and oils the rails and also might clean
minor oil off electronic scales that is causing servo oscillation

put a test indicator on the the y axis table and see if its moving during your cut.

 

[Houdini]

.
Servo oscillation in Y and Z obviously can leave chatter marks moving in X thats
assuming the X ball screw is ok
.
Sometimes a "warmup" program cleans and oils the rails and also might clean
minor oil off electronic scales that is causing servo oscillation

I forgot, I had a instance of servo oscillation hummm once,
So I just went over and lowered the head few inches above the table and left it,
And the Z servo started shuttering/humming, probable part or all of the problem,
hopefully Haas can fix this.

 

[Houdini]

Also the chatter marks are mostly when the XY move together in a linear angle move,
cuts are clean in the X only, Y only, and arc moves.
there is a mark off from direction changes on arc paths though.

And in diving in further it is just the DM2, the other 2 machines issues were from people letting the coolant get low and recut causing chatter marks,
because MiniMills only have coolant from one side.

 

[Orange Vise]

Can you post some photos of the chatter marks?

Try running a spring pass (zero WOC) and see if that smooths out those imperfections. Also post your complete setup - workholding, toolholder, tool, coolant, and coolant concentration.

The DM2 is a high speed, lightweight machine - IMHO not in Haas' wheelhouse. Their forte is making machines like the VF2/VF2-SS, which are 3,000 lbs heavier.

 

[gustafson]

Since it happens on several machines it really would seem not to be the machine

Not to put too fine a point on it, but it comes to mind that you buy several of the cheapest machines available, it occurs to me this might follow into tooling and cutting tools.

One 5 dollar end mill is as bad as another, one Chinese no name toolholder is as good as any other.

I mentioned recently that I love hydraulic holders. It took a bunch for a cheap ass like me to buy a 300+ dollar holder instead of a 100 dollar one, but that was the end of chatter problems

Also chatter you should hear, other surface imperfections are something else.

 

[Houdini]

Can you post some photos of the chatter marks?

Try running a spring pass (zero WOC) and see if that smooths out those imperfections. Also post your complete setup - workholding, toolholder, tool, coolant, and coolant concentration.

The DM2 is a high speed, lightweight machine - IMHO not in Haas' wheelhouse. Their forte is making machines like the VF2/VF2-SS, which are 3,000 lbs heavier.

Thank you for the comment, but it is something wrong with the machine, like servo's,ball screw compensation incorrect..., the machine has chatter looking marks when making XY "angular" cuts ONLY, and leaves direction change marks @ 12,3,6,9 o'clock (XY direction change issue, backlash compensation?).
It doesn't matter what tool, what vise, what setup, doesn't matter if its a .1 WOC or a .001 WOC, doesn't matter if you do a spring pass, .........
because of this it could have been the G187 smooth parameter, but I am already using it in G187 P3 (smooth/fine control)
it could have also been POST processor creating a million line segments instead of a line, but no, it is a single linear G1 move from start to finish.

And my Haas MiniMill and MiniMill2 both run all these same programs with the same tooling, and the same Orange vises, and same jaws..... and don't leave the chatter marks or the direction change marks.

 

[Houdini]

Since it happens on several machines it really would seem not to be the machine

Not to put too fine a point on it, but it comes to mind that you buy several of the cheapest machines available, it occurs to me this might follow into tooling and cutting tools.

One 5 dollar end mill is as bad as another, one Chinese no name toolholder is as good as any other.

I mentioned recently that I love hydraulic holders. It took a bunch for a cheap ass like me to buy a 300+ dollar holder instead of a 100 dollar one, but that was the end of chatter problems

Also chatter you should hear, other surface imperfections are something else.

It isnt actually chatter, because as you say chatter is a harmonic, it makes a sound. there is no audible sound, its the machine just making these imperfect cuts.
And as far as tooling, its all Maritool holders and collets,
But just for kicks I tried a stubby ER32 Lyndex holder, and a Haimer heat shrink holder, and a Tungaloy 1.5" index mill,same shit.
As far as a finish endmill holder I am eyeballing some Schunk Tendo ES, because they are extremely stubby, I hate long tool holders, most of mine only have a 1.75" gauge length.

Real machine shop's dont buy Chinese tooling, haha truth

 

[G00 Proto]

The problem you are having is probably related to how much weight you have on the table vs how much weight the machine was “tuned” for. The DM/DT series has a low table weight rating. They are very temperamental for servo acc/dec and friction settings. It will take a very good technician a full day with a laser ball bar to get it cutting well in all directions. They will claim it is your programming (G187 etc). Then they will claim it is your tool holders. Then your endmills. Then your work holding. Then they’ll claim you bumped it and need new ball screws. Finally after a week of jerking you around they will send a tech. He will do a laser ball bar for 30 minutes and tell you it’s good to go. DO NOT LET HIM LEAVE. It’ll be better, but still sucky. Have a test part. I like a bar with three bosses. A circular boss, a square boss and a diamond boss… say .75” tall. Use simple code so the HFO doesn’t get confused. Show them that some of the axis directions have different surface finishes. Then they’ll button down and actually tune the friction and acc/dec and all the other servo shit I don’t understand.


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[Houdini]

The problem you are having is probably related to how much weight you have on the table vs how much weight the machine was “tuned” for. The DM/DT series has a low table weight rating. They are very temperamental for servo acc/dec and friction settings. It will take a very good technician a full day with a laser ball bar to get it cutting well in all directions. They will claim it is your programming (G187 etc). Then they will claim it is your tool holders. Then your endmills. Then your work holding. Then they’ll claim you bumped it and need new ball screws. Finally after a week of jerking you around they will send a tech. He will do a laser ball bar for 30 minutes and tell you it’s good to go. DO NOT LET HIM LEAVE. It’ll be better, but still sucky. Have a test part. I like a bar with three bosses. A circular boss, a square boss and a diamond boss… say .75” tall. Use simple code so the HFO doesn’t get confused. Show them that some of the axis directions have different surface finishes. Then they’ll button down and actually tune the friction and acc/dec and all the other servo shit I don’t understand.


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This is what I expect will happen, which is why I am so pissed about the issue.

 

[G00 Proto]

This is what I expect will happen, which is why I am so pissed about the issue.

How much mass weight do you have on the table, and how centered is the weight? This can have a huge impact. With the TRT160, we had to tune one down to VF speeds and absolutely center the trunnion on the table.


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[Houdini]

How much mass weight do you have on the table, and how centered is the weight? This can have a huge impact. With the TRT160, we had to tune one down to VF speeds and absolutely center the trunnion on the table.


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I am right at the 250lb weight limit on a couple setups, but others are lighter,
I have 2 20" orange Dbl Vises spread apart on the table, It is balanced though.
And remember it is a slow moving finish pass that has the marks in it, So that mass isnt being slung all over during these passes.

 

[Houdini]

Can you post some photos of the chatter marks?

Try running a spring pass (zero WOC) and see if that smooths out those imperfections. Also post your complete setup - workholding, toolholder, tool, coolant, and coolant concentration.

The DM2 is a high speed, lightweight machine - IMHO not in Haas' wheelhouse. Their forte is making machines like the VF2/VF2-SS, which are 3,000 lbs heavier.

Hey I know you guys make some of the vise parts in Aluminum for the less expensive single station, What parts do you make, that I can swap for Aluminum versions?
If they are made of 6061, what are the chances of getting some made from 7075?
I make injection molds from 7075 and its far tougher than 6061.

 

[G00 Proto]

I am right at the 250lb weight limit on a couple setups, but others are lighter,
I have 2 20" orange Dbl Vises spread apart on the table, It is balanced though.
And remember it is a slow moving finish pass that has the marks in it, So that mass isnt being slung all over during these passes.

It don’t really understand the physics of it, but speed doesn’t seem to be the issue. It is more friction (sticktion) in the ball screw. In other words the assembly is stopping and popping rather than moving smoothly. If I had to guess, the chatter you are seeing is visible and tactile vertical lines about .080” apart… looks almost like faceting.


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[Orange Vise]

Hey I know you guys make some of the vise parts in Aluminum for the less expensive single station, What parts do you make, that I can swap for Aluminum versions?
If they are made of 6061, what are the chances of getting some made from 7075?
I make injection molds from 7075 and its far tougher than 6061.

We actually discontinued that model. The aluminum components were 7075 but we had a lot of trouble sourcing the material. We were able to substitute with 7050, but that source dried up quickly. That was 3 years ago. Material sourcing issues are even worse now.

If you're looking for a lighter dual station vise, our Delta IV vises are coming out in dual station versions very soon. We've already begun shipping them but haven't officially launched them yet.

A 4x9 dual station features all steel construction and weighs in at under 30 lbs. So about 1/3 the weight, 1/3 the cost, same quality (hardened body, ground four sides) and some nifty new features like snap-on jaws.