7.5hp Phase Perfect for Speedio?

[azander]

Hello everyone,

I'm looking at bringing my Bro Speedio S500X1, 16K spindle, to my 'home' garage. To date it's been in a industrial building, on 240V '3-phase 4-wire' power. The 'home' space is 240V, 100A and I need 3-phase. I'm looking at the Phase Perfect PT007 and PTE007R (Enterprise) spec'd at 10.8kVA and 26amps steady state. The Brother is 9.5kVA and 27.5A/phase (continuous) at AC200V; 30-amp breaker recommended.

I don't run my Speedio very hard. ... All in, is it realistic the PT007/PTE007R can run the machine alone without issue? Secondly, is the voltage from the Phase Perfect phase-to-phase - will the output be 240V 3-phase, delta? Will I need a transformer? Lastly, how loud are these phase converters - is it mostly fan noise or an electrical hum? ... Does anyone else have the Enterprise models?

I'll only also run a 5hp, single phase 240V compressor off it's own ~40A breaker.

Thanks!

 

[couch]

The Speedio will need 208v (+/-10%) 3PH on a 30A breaker. Strange you didn’t get alarms on 240v at the shop.

 

[gkoenig]

My Speedio ran fine on "240v" 3 phase from the utility. Of course, it measured at like 235 or so. From what I've seen so far, utility 3 phase at 240V seems to run lots of Speedios without transformers just fine, but residential applications with a phase converter almost always require the transformer.

 

[machfab]

Back in May of 2021, we installed a Brother Speedio and also installed a PT010 to run it (10hp Phaseperfect)
The PT010 WILL run the machine but will have issues at random during the tool change operation. When stopping the spindle, changing tools & starting the spindle back up, the PT010 will not be able to keep up. We get several "Open Phase" and "Overvolt" alarms on the machine. Long story short, we are replacing with a 20hp rotary. Hope this helps as this was a costly lesson for us. Also, when there are several tool changes along with a short cycle time, the problem gets worse. If you are determined to use a Phaseperfect, DOUBLE the size you think you need. That MAY help, but not totally sure.

 

[SND]

Back in May of 2021, we installed a Brother Speedio and also installed a PT010 to run it (10hp Phaseperfect)
The PT010 WILL run the machine but will have issues at random during the tool change operation. When stopping the spindle, changing tools & starting the spindle back up, the PT010 will not be able to keep up. We get several "Open Phase" and "Overvolt" alarms on the machine. Long story short, we are replacing with a 20hp rotary. Hope this helps as this was a costly lesson for us. Also, when there are several tool changes along with a short cycle time, the problem gets worse. If you are determined to use a Phaseperfect, DOUBLE the size you think you need. That MAY help, but not totally sure.

Did you guys change the setting on your PT010 so that it runs in Elevator Mode and not in Transformer Mode? (they ship out in transformer mode)
In Elevator mode it will do an instant hard start and maintain voltage across the 3 legs nearly as good as the older models did. While in elevator mode it greatly drops the T3 voltage trying to act as a half assed "soft start" and it can take about 6-7 seconds to stabilize. I had that issue with the new PT010 I bought a few months ago.

My older 20HP PT355 runs a 20hp cnc lathe without problem the last 3 years.

 

[machfab]

Did you guys change the setting on your PT010 so that it runs in Elevator Mode and not in Transformer Mode? (they ship out in transformer mode)
In Elevator mode it will do an instant hard start and maintain voltage across the 3 legs nearly as good as the older models did. While in elevator mode it greatly drops the T3 voltage trying to act as a half assed "soft start" and it can take about 6-7 seconds to stabilize. I had that issue with the new PT010 I bought a few months ago.

My older 20HP PT355 runs a 20hp cnc lathe without problem the last 3 years.

Yes,
We set to Elevator Mode and still had the same problem.
We have another PT330 that runs a Brother R650 that doesn't have any problems.
I think it is a combination of the new generation Brother machine along with a new generation Phaseperfect that just cant keep up with the spikes.
The new Brothers are more sensitive to voltage fluctuations
We are in the process of installing a new 20hp rotary this week
I will report back
Thanks

 

[Pete Deal]

When the spindle motor on my Speedio starts and stops the spindle current spikes to about 120amps. This is documented somewhere in the stack of manuals too. I have two Brother mills a new one and and older one. When I got the new one I would get an over voltage error message on the old machine when the spindle would ramp down quickly on the new machine. When I installed the new machine I installed it with a 3 phase buck transformer. I didn't have a transformer on the old machine but should have, voltage runs about 246v. When I installed a transformer on the old machine the error went away. I'm using a 30hp american rotary. Never any issues since.

I know a bunch of people love their phase perfect's. I used to think they were the ticket but since reading some of the issues people have had on this forum with them I wouldn't take one for free.

 

[Pete Deal]

Thermite: I enjoy your posts. You're a smart guy I know and very knowledgeable about this stuff. But I only understand about 15% of what you just said.

Pretty sure you just said RPC's are bullet proof and can't be hurt. If so, I certainly agree.

 

[johansen]

I measured 70 amps back feeding the grid for 120 milliseconds at 240 volts at the third leg of the rpc on a spedio that was setup with transformers to deliver 200 volts to the rpc.

So I can believe the above comment of 120amps and the comments that a 10hp phase perfect couldn't handle it.

I built somone a circuit that turns on a 4500 watt heating element through a SSR and stack of zener diodes because his 20hp American rotary converter wasn't stiff enough



The small sine wave of the yellow trace is 9.8 amps flowing through a capacitor I added , as the current transformer I used doesn't really have any calibration. You can visually see the ratio is about 7.

The blue trace is showing 208v line to ground, increasing during spindle braking due to the 1 ohm impedance of the rpc.

 

[azander]

Seems a number of people have used the 10hp / PT330. Anyone else have success or problems pairing that with their Speedio?

 

[SND]

Yes,
We set to Elevator Mode and still had the same problem.
We have another PT330 that runs a Brother R650 that doesn't have any problems.
I think it is a combination of the new generation Brother machine along with a new generation Phaseperfect that just cant keep up with the spikes.
The new Brothers are more sensitive to voltage fluctuations
We are in the process of installing a new 20hp rotary this week
I will report back
Thanks

Good to know, thanks. I've had the feeling this newest design isn't quite as capable as the older designs, reduced costs, less components...
I had to put a line reactor ahead of my new PT010 as it had a lot more harmonic feedback on the mains than the previous designs and still have another issue with mine, weird pulsation that can be felt on the lathe that isn't there with my old phase perfect, but I haven't run on that new one again or had any time to screw around some more with it.

 

[SND]

Seems a number of people have used the 10hp / PT330. Anyone else have success or problems pairing that with their Speedio?

Older PT models like the 330, 355, you'd probably have to find a slightly used one. I doubt dealers have any left in stock?
I think I'll start looking for a used P380 or 355 to keep as backup even if they're not supported.

 

[azander]

...
We are in the process of installing a new 20hp rotary this week
I will report back

How did it work out with the rotary?

Striking out on finding a previous gen PP. Might just go rotary 20hp as well, if it gets the job done.

 

[machfab]

How did it work out with the rotary?

Striking out on finding a previous gen PP. Might just go rotary 20hp as well, if it gets the job done.

Happy to report back that 20HP rotary has been running the Brother with multiple toolchanges for 14 hours a day for a week without issue!

 

[thesjg]

Back in May of 2021, we installed a Brother Speedio and also installed a PT010 to run it (10hp Phaseperfect)
The PT010 WILL run the machine but will have issues at random during the tool change operation. When stopping the spindle, changing tools & starting the spindle back up, the PT010 will not be able to keep up. We get several "Open Phase" and "Overvolt" alarms on the machine. Long story short, we are replacing with a 20hp rotary. Hope this helps as this was a costly lesson for us. Also, when there are several tool changes along with a short cycle time, the problem gets worse. If you are determined to use a Phaseperfect, DOUBLE the size you think you need. That MAY help, but not totally sure.

The issue being seen here is due to regeneration by the spindle under braking, and shouldn't be related to the tool change -- the spindle braking and the tool change just happen to coincide with one another most of the time. The Phase Perfect handles this situation (you were tripping your machine control, not the Phase Perfect), but understood -- out here in the real world, my saying it's your CNC machines fault doesn't help anyone. So here's the real answer: for machines that regenerate significant amounts of energy in a short time we can't always buffer enough of that energy with the DC bus in the Phase Perfect to prevent a brief period of high voltage on the generated leg. (Side note: we regularly sell Phase Perfect's to individuals who are experiencing issues with their rotary phase converter related to regeneration, it manifests differently with a rotary)

This is an uncommon issue, large CNC lathes are the most-seen culprits, because they brake their headstock quite aggressively. It would make sense that super fast or drill/tap type machines like the Speedio could also cause an issue, because they are also quite aggressive. Upsizing the Phase Perfect is a solution to this, it will remedy the problem. We can provide another solution as well, through our service department for an existing Phase Perfect, or as a special order for a new unit. The DC bus for larger Phase Perfect models are a direct fit into smaller models that share the same chassis. We could have upgraded your PT010 to a PT020 bus and remedied the issue.

I apologize if you contacted the Phase service department and weren't presented with this option, most instances of this type of issue that have been reported have been CNC lathes 40 horsepower and larger.

 

[machfab]

The issue being seen here is due to regeneration by the spindle under braking, and shouldn't be related to the tool change -- the spindle braking and the tool change just happen to coincide with one another most of the time. The Phase Perfect handles this situation (you were tripping your machine control, not the Phase Perfect), but understood -- out here in the real world, my saying it's your CNC machines fault doesn't help anyone. So here's the real answer: for machines that regenerate significant amounts of energy in a short time we can't always buffer enough of that energy with the DC bus in the Phase Perfect to prevent a brief period of high voltage on the generated leg. (Side note: we regularly sell Phase Perfect's to individuals who are experiencing issues with their rotary phase converter related to regeneration, it manifests differently with a rotary)

This is an uncommon issue, large CNC lathes are the most-seen culprits, because they brake their headstock quite aggressively. It would make sense that super fast or drill/tap type machines like the Speedio could also cause an issue, because they are also quite aggressive. Upsizing the Phase Perfect is a solution to this, it will remedy the problem. We can provide another solution as well, through our service department for an existing Phase Perfect, or as a special order for a new unit. The DC bus for larger Phase Perfect models are a direct fit into smaller models that share the same chassis. We could have upgraded your PT010 to a PT020 bus and remedied the issue.

I apologize if you contacted the Phase service department and weren't presented with this option, most instances of this type of issue that have been reported have been CNC lathes 40 horsepower and larger.

I was in contact with the service department at length and was not offered this option. Maybe because we were getting overvoltage and undervoltage alarms at the machine.

 

[thesjg]

I was in contact with the service department at length and was not offered this option. Maybe because we were getting overvoltage and undervoltage alarms at the machine.

If you would, email me at [email protected] with enough contact information to dig up your sales and service history.

 

[JST]

You ought to follow up with them.

The regen issue was my first thought when I read the original post.

An RPC has a "theoretical" regen path through it, but in actual use, it probably is only doing significant regen through the "passed-through" legs, and not so much in the generated leg. I'd be somewhat surprised if it could do a better job.

The Phase Perfect has the ability to regen as much power to the line as it can draw from the line, by adjusting the timing of the switching devices. It should do well.

Reading between the lines of what the PP guy wrote, it seems as if the regen from the load is fine, but there may not be enough storage internal to the PP to handle the peak return power. The PP may be forced to cut the amount of regen from the load to prevent itself from going over voltage. That would result in the load possibly over-volting just like a VFD without a brake resistor, because the load then has trouble getting rid of energy.

The solution he refers to appears to be essentially upgrading the PP bus storage to absorb more energy before IT gets to overvoltage, so that the PP can essentially "average" the power throughput, and not need to handle the peaks.

Seems very reasonable to me, although this issue might be better handled by PP offering a "heavy duty CNC" version with the improved bus storage. In a different thread he mentioned the use of a larger PP unit, which would have generally the same effect. A larger unit would both have both better storage, and the ability to handle a larger peak power to begin with.

What he wrote was the following concerning specifically the voltage doubling units, but it seems to cover the situation quite well for units that are closely sized to a load which has significant regen:

"Most of these units that Phase has shipped to date are pumping water. We expect them to get more popular for machine tools as we release models that can handle more current. They generally work quite well, and we are working to improve the robustness of the DC bus to over/under-current/voltage conditions before we take them to 30HP and beyond. Given that, current models should work quite well on a VMC or Lathe that does not produce significant regeneration -- those that do produce significant regeneration may require stepping up a size. "

 

[thesjg]

The solution he refers to appears to be essentially upgrading the PP bus storage to absorb more energy before IT gets to overvoltage, so that the PP can essentially "average" the power throughput, and not need to handle the peaks.

Seems very reasonable to me, although this issue might be better handled by PP offering a "heavy duty CNC" version with the improved bus storage. In a different thread he mentioned the use of a larger PP unit, which would have generally the same effect. A larger unit would both have both better storage, and the ability to handle a larger peak power to begin with.

To put this in context, we have already put custom units in the field that solve significant regeneration challenges. That was done as-needed to ensure our product would solve those challenges for those customers. You can count the number of these "upgraded bus" installs on one hand, they are a fraction of a percentage -- so we have not yet determined whether or not there is a hole in the market here that needs to be addressed, but we are certainly looking at it, and early indications are it will become more prevalent.

To date these upgraded Phase Perfect's have all been PT040 (40 horsepower) and larger. The "issue" is limited to modern, high performance machining centers so far as we can tell. It appears to be a combination of speed -- meaning significant regeneration because they brake the spindle so fast -- coupled with modern controls that monitor things like peak voltage and voltage balance more closely than older controls.

"Issue" is a bit subjective, because in 99.9% of cases the Phase Perfect ends up being plug-and-play and runs whatever load is thrown at it. These cases are also definitely not entirely "handled" by other phase conversion solutions, but while I'm happy to talk about our failure modes, I won't directly address theirs.

 

[machfab]

Toolchanging

To put this in context, we have already put custom units in the field that solve significant regeneration challenges. That was done as-needed to ensure our product would solve those challenges for those customers. You can count the number of these "upgraded bus" installs on one hand, they are a fraction of a percentage -- so we have not yet determined whether or not there is a hole in the market here that needs to be addressed, but we are certainly looking at it, and early indications are it will become more prevalent.

To date these upgraded Phase Perfect's have all been PT040 (40 horsepower) and larger. The "issue" is limited to modern, high performance machining centers so far as we can tell. It appears to be a combination of speed -- meaning significant regeneration because they brake the spindle so fast -- coupled with modern controls that monitor things like peak voltage and voltage balance more closely than older controls.

"Issue" is a bit subjective, because in 99.9% of cases the Phase Perfect ends up being plug-and-play and runs whatever load is thrown at it. These cases are also definitely not entirely "handled" by other phase conversion solutions, but while I'm happy to talk about our failure modes, I won't directly address theirs.

The factory "Chip-to-Chip" toolchange spec. is 1.3 seconds. That spec is exact as far as we can measure. That being said, the 9.5 KVA rating goes out the window when you go from 16K rpm to zero, change tools and back up to 16K rpm (worst case)in that time span. I'm not sure what size digital phase converter would handle that but I think that the power draw ends up being several times the nameplate KVA rating on the machine.