New Machine Purchase

[cwhuffman]

Hello to the Practical Machinist forum! This is my first post here, so go easy on me.

In short, I am looking at purchasing a turning center for my business and have narrowed it down to two choices: The Mazak QT-Ez 12MSY and the Doosan Lynx 2600SY. Both machines fit within my specs and offer everything I need (ability to feed 3 inch bar, live tooling, sub spindle, y axis, etc.)

I have quotes, specs, and pricing info for both machines and they are both extremely competitive in many regards. They have a lot of overlap in both performance specs, and they are very close in price, with the Mazak being a little more than the Doosan based on how I have them optioned.

I have worked in shops before with many different machines from different manufactures on the floor. I have ran a lot of Haas in the past, and for a while Haas was going to be the route that I went for my new machine purchase. However, with the resent issues that new Haas owners are experiencing and the "cheapening" of the machines, the Mazak and Doosan offering have become extremely appealing for me. I have spoken to my Ellison rep about the Doosan and was able to see a new Mazak QT-Ez in person a few weeks ago. Being as I have no experience with either newer Doosans or Mazaks. Although I am not crazy about Mazatrol, I am leaning more towards the Mazak simply because their lead times are quite a bit shorter than Doosan at this time, and would allow me to get the machine sometime in late May or early June if everything goes well. On the other hand, the Doosans are extremely well built, rigid machines with a lot of "bells and whistles" if you will included in the standard base price.

If you have ran/own either of the machines I have listed, or from that machine family, I want some insight on what you feel are the pros and cons about each machine or some things I should be cautious of before making a decision. Opinions on each machine brand in general are welcome, but I am mainly looking at a direct comparison from the perspective of each machine. I will note that I have looked at other brands such as SMEC, Smart, Hyundai Wia, and of course Haas to name a few.

Thank you to anyone that can offer some insight!

 

[Panza]

I had a Mazak Quick Turn smart, which I guess is the earlier model of the Ez. I like the bolt-on turret. I did not like the fact that interupted cuts made the turret rotate out of alignment. After having used Mapps mazatrol seems very old. I have not ran a Doosan but you seem to get a lot more for your money. And you can order it with Siemens.

 

[Kingbob]

I drink the Mazak Kool-aid and I drink it deep. I've been running mazak's for 10 years and plan to keep it that way. My work is very small lot sizes and one offs. I write new programs daily and typically set up and breakdown a machine at least 3 or 4 times a day. The ease and speed of coding turning operations in mazatrol makes what I do possible. The 10 or so machines we've had over the years have all impressed me, we cut stainless and exotics. I think your use case should inform your choice. If I was setting up machine's for long runs I would prefer to do that in g-code so as to optimize every motion of the machine, so my mazatrol bias would not be a factor. For the way we run though speed is king, we regularly ship same day orders. I'm not saying that, that isn't possible with other controls or other machines. I just think the way we operate plays to mazak's strengths. As far as the iron goes I, I still have the first qt-250 we bought new in 2011, and am still impressed by the accuracy and reliability of the machine. She has been rough handled and bumped more times than I can count and still splits tenths no problem.

 

[CITIZEN F16]

If you aren't tech savvy which machine offers the best options for convenient local service should be a considered factor. Some machinery manufacturers are notorious for poor overpriced factory service and a PITA to order parts from.

 

[Mtndew]

Why not consider Okuma? You're in NC, the Okuma HQ.

 

[RJT]

I'm in North Carolina also, have a shop full of Doosan milling and turning, and am very happy with them. We are a very happy long term Fanuc user as well and use MasterCAM to create programs. We are doing short run complex tight tolerance parts , so create several new complex programs daily. Ellison has been a B+ as far as a distributor, we have purchased several machines from them, but honestly have needed very little service. We had more long term history with the previous distributor for Doosan. About a 20? year history total with Doosan.

Pictures here:

Progressive Tool @ MFG. INC. Greensboro, NC

 

[DouglasJRizzo]

Both are excellent machines and both will serve you well for many years.
As I've said before, I'm a little biased as I used to work for them, but the Doosan is a great value.
I think the Mazak is a VERY well built machine and the Mazatrol can be either G code or conversational. Most Mazak owners I know love their machines, just like most Doosan owners do theirs.

I think you'll make great money with either.

As an aside, as Doosan-positive as I am, in my shop, it's Okuma by a country mile. Every damn day.

 

[Scruffy887]

I drink the Mazak Kool-aid and I drink it deep. I've been running mazak's for 10 years and plan to keep it that way. My work is very small lot sizes and one offs. I write new programs daily and typically set up and breakdown a machine at least 3 or 4 times a day. The ease and speed of coding turning operations in mazatrol makes what I do possible. The 10 or so machines we've had over the years have all impressed me, we cut stainless and exotics. I think your use case should inform your choice. If I was setting up machine's for long runs I would prefer to do that in g-code so as to optimize every motion of the machine, so my mazatrol bias would not be a factor. For the way we run though speed is king, we regularly ship same day orders. I'm not saying that, that isn't possible with other controls or other machines. I just think the way we operate plays to mazak's strengths. As far as the iron goes I, I still have the first qt-250 we bought new in 2011, and am still impressed by the accuracy and reliability of the machine. She has been rough handled and bumped more times than I can count and still splits tenths no problem.

Your 2011 QT is jail bait! My 1999 SQT is still making good parts. After several sub spindle crashes. First big crash destroyed a VDI holder and put a slight wobble in sub spindle chuck. About 2 years in. Had to re alight turret. Second sub crash spared the holder, also removed the chuck wobble! About 10 years in. Had to skim jaws both times. Still running good parts.
I thought about the EZ series lathes about a year ago, same machine as OP I think. But having an SQT and a QT (1999 and 2006) made the choice of a QTMSY 250 ??? a no brainer. Bolt on VS VDI, and I stayed with VDI to keep interchangeability. ( big fookin word)
Best service and best support after the sale is what you want.

 

[cwhuffman]

I had a Mazak Quick Turn smart, which I guess is the earlier model of the Ez. I like the bolt-on turret. I did not like the fact that interupted cuts made the turret rotate out of alignment. After having used Mapps mazatrol seems very old. I have not ran a Doosan but you seem to get a lot more for your money. And you can order it with Siemens.

Interesting note about interrupted cutting and the alignment issues, I do not think I have heard of this before but it is something that I will keep in mind. The only conversational programming I have ever done is on a Prototrak or the Haas VPS, and comparing it to Mazatrol makes the Trak look very old. The Haas VPS is very buggy, and isn't that reliable. I plan to use CAM software for the majority of what I do, with the exception of that quick one off job. The Siemens option on the Doosan is appealing, but according to their documentation if you spec a Siemens control they de-rate the machine horsepower on all spindles by some amount. Not a huge deal, but it is something to also consider.

 

[cwhuffman]

Why not consider Okuma? You're in NC, the Okuma HQ.

Okuma would be a choice as well, but what they had to offer really didn't appeal to me, and the base starting price was considerably more than the ones I have mentioned here. I would be more willing to consider Okuma for a VMC instead, but that would be down the road a bit.

 

[cwhuffman]

I'm in North Carolina also, have a shop full of Doosan milling and turning, and am very happy with them. We are a very happy long term Fanuc user as well and use MasterCAM to create programs. We are doing short run complex tight tolerance parts , so create several new complex programs daily. Ellison has been a B+ as far as a distributor, we have purchased several machines from them, but honestly have needed very little service. We had more long term history with the previous distributor for Doosan. About a 20? year history total with Doosan.

Pictures here:

Progressive Tool @ MFG. INC. Greensboro, NC

Thank you for your insight, this is the sort of information I was seeking. I too have heard from various sources that Ellison could be a bit poor on Service at times, but not needing a ton of service is another thing. Very nice, clean shop by the way.

 

[cwhuffman]

I drink the Mazak Kool-aid and I drink it deep. I've been running mazak's for 10 years and plan to keep it that way. My work is very small lot sizes and one offs. I write new programs daily and typically set up and breakdown a machine at least 3 or 4 times a day. The ease and speed of coding turning operations in mazatrol makes what I do possible. The 10 or so machines we've had over the years have all impressed me, we cut stainless and exotics. I think your use case should inform your choice. If I was setting up machine's for long runs I would prefer to do that in g-code so as to optimize every motion of the machine, so my mazatrol bias would not be a factor. For the way we run though speed is king, we regularly ship same day orders. I'm not saying that, that isn't possible with other controls or other machines. I just think the way we operate plays to mazak's strengths. As far as the iron goes I, I still have the first qt-250 we bought new in 2011, and am still impressed by the accuracy and reliability of the machine. She has been rough handled and bumped more times than I can count and still splits tenths no problem.

Good insight. As far as my use case goes, about 50% of my capacity will be dedicated to components that I will make and sell myself, but there will be capacity (especially in the beginning) that will allow me to do job shop type stuff, ranging from one part to 500 pieces for instance. Having that flexibility will help me as I will only be a one man shop for the near future.

 

[Kingbob]

Good insight. As far as my use case goes, about 50% of my capacity will be dedicated to components that I will make and sell myself, but there will be capacity (especially in the beginning) that will allow me to do job shop type stuff, ranging from one part to 500 pieces for instance. Having that flexibility will help me as I will only be a one man shop for the near future.

I program the mills using a cam package and before we got the first mazak I programed our Haas lathes offline as well. I can not overstate the ease and intuitive nature of Mazatrol after you become accustomed to it. Service after the sale is also extremely important. I have no idea what that looks like in your area, however I have delt with RJT of Progressive Tool @ MFG. INC. Greensboro, NC a few times over the years and they do great work. His doosan vote and experience with their distributor should not be taken lightly. Your best bet is to reach out to several users, in your area, of the machines on your shortlist, disregard shops the salesman recommends for obvious reasons.

 

[BROTHERFRANK]

Have you considered Takisawa (Japan) TS-4000YS? 3.23" bar capacity, 10" main and 6" sub Kitagawa chucks, 500 lb/ft torque main, 4200 rpm main, about 5" Y travel, all box way except sub is on linear, 10 hp milling, same turret tooling as NLX2500 12 station, 2 'X' and 2 'Z' live included, 32i Fanuc, dual tool setters, parts catcher, bar feed interface and chip conveyor all standard.

 

[VTM]

I drink the Mazak Kool-aid and I drink it deep. I've been running mazak's for 10 years and plan to keep it that way. My work is very small lot sizes and one offs. I write new programs daily and typically set up and breakdown a machine at least 3 or 4 times a day. The ease and speed of coding turning operations in mazatrol makes what I do possible. The 10 or so machines we've had over the years have all impressed me, we cut stainless and exotics. I think your use case should inform your choice. If I was setting up machine's for long runs I would prefer to do that in g-code so as to optimize every motion of the machine, so my mazatrol bias would not be a factor. For the way we run though speed is king, we regularly ship same day orders. I'm not saying that, that isn't possible with other controls or other machines. I just think the way we operate plays to mazak's strengths. As far as the iron goes I, I still have the first qt-250 we bought new in 2011, and am still impressed by the accuracy and reliability of the machine. She has been rough handled and bumped more times than I can count and still splits tenths no problem.

You should be able to get a Mazak with G-Code option If that's a concern. Ours has Mazatrol and G-Code option. It's been a great machine. I have no experience with Doosan. But If I was looking I would look hard at one and also the Takisawa line that BROTHERFRANK mentioned.

 

[BT Fabrication]

either or is a great machine, Id call and talk to the service dept. and ask how easy it is to get a tech out to service a machine if needed? I have a preference over doosan compared to mazak, mostly due to a poor local rep that didn't give 2 shits about me, I was just requesting a bit of information, yet greeted with the response of, you don't own it yet(used) so we can't hep you...

 

[BT Fabrication]

either or is a great machine, Id call and talk to the service dept. and ask how easy it is to get a tech out to service a machine if needed? I have a preference over doosan compared to mazak, mostly due to a poor local rep that didn't give 2 shits about me, I was just requesting a bit of information, yet greeted with the response of, "you don't own it yet(used) so we can't help you"...

 

[EIA_guy]

either or is a great machine, Id call and talk to the service dept. and ask how easy it is to get a tech out to service a machine if needed? I have a preference over doosan compared to mazak, mostly due to a poor local rep that didn't give 2 shits about me, I was just requesting a bit of information, yet greeted with the response of, "you don't own it yet(used) so we can't help you"...

Our experience has been exactly the opposite. Not only have we had maintenance issues already within the two years we've had our (very expensive) Doosan mill, service has been "meh", whereas our Mazak (muti axis lathe) has been (knock on wood!) good to us and every time we've had issues (programming/parameter changes) they've been surprisingly prompt. One time I had emailed them and I was getting paged by the time I got out to the shop floor!

As my SN would suggest, it's programmed in EIA/G-code, not Mazatrol(Smooth-G control), but even with the limited exposure I've had with Mazatrol I can tell you it absolutely SMOKES every other conversational system out there, MAPPS, HAAS' Visual Part Programming...all of them.

I wouldn't hesitate to another Mazak, at least a lathe.

 

[Friar]

We're looking at a similar situation but with an Okuma Genos and a Mazak mills. But the thing that worries me is that the EZ series is new. Sure Mazak has a solid rep and I'm sure they would stand behind whatever might happen but I can't afford to be a part of teething issues. We've had notable reliability issues with our last machine (different builder), 30+ days of downtime in the first year so reliability is top of mind with our next purchase.

 

[Ox]

Interesting note about interrupted cutting and the alignment issues, I do not think I have heard of this before but it is something that I will keep in mind. The only conversational programming I have ever done is on a Prototrak or the Haas VPS, and comparing it to Mazatrol makes the Trak look very old. The Haas VPS is very buggy, and isn't that reliable. I plan to use CAM software for the majority of what I do, with the exception of that quick one off job. The Siemens option on the Doosan is appealing, but according to their documentation if you spec a Siemens control they de-rate the machine horsepower on all spindles by some amount. Not a huge deal, but it is something to also consider.

You doo NOT want a Siemens control in the USA unless you are running a $500K+ European 5x mill.



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Think Snow Eh!
Ox