Large Volume CNC recomendations

[MeistereE]

Hello everybody. First, post so forgive me if I make any mistakes.

I'm helping my company find a large double-column CNC. We are looking for two machines. One with X:6m|236" Y:3m|118" and Z:1m|40" and another with Y:3m|118" X: 1.5m|58" Z:.8m|31" travels

We are a job shop so our work varies a lot but it's almost always stainless steel, A36 plates, carbon steel.

So far I've contacted Okuma, Mazak, and Doosan. I've also contacted some brands from Taiwan such as Kao ming, Toyoda, and Vision Wide.

Okuma and Mazak are too expensive. I haven't quoted the double-column mill yet but I can see where it's going from other quotes I received from them.
Doosan seems like a great option, I'm heavily considering them, but I'm still waiting on the quote.

What are your guy's opinions on the Taiwanese brands? I know I won't receive the type same support as I would from a major brand like the others I mentioned.

For my type of work, what's better? a double-column mill or a moving gantry mill? So far I've only been able to find a moving gantry mill from Toyoda.

Are box ways worth it for doing heavy cuts with steel?

Thank you in advance

 

[Milland]

Box ways are good for steel cutting, but like anything it's a matter of design and execution - wimpy box ways with bad lubrication won't last longer than robust linear roller bearing ways.

Those are "Big Boy" machines, they won't be cheap unless you buy used. Better to spend up front than regret the purchase later.

Any machine you decide on, make sure to get written guarantees on their suitability for purpose. Many a salesperson will sing you a song of perfection, then disappear when the machine on the floor can't carry a tune.

On Doosan, search for recent threads here on their spindles and support. Not as good as I'd hoped.

On Taiwanese machines, keep an eye on China. If things go "Boom" you may find getting them to the US isn't easy...

 

[EmGo]

What are your guy's opinions on the Taiwanese brands?

Whatever you do, don't buy Awea. Stinky.

Isn't this post a repeat, btw ?

 

[Mtndew]

Okuma and Mazak are too expensive. I haven't quoted the double-column mill yet but I can see where it's going from other quotes I received from them.

Any machine that size worth it's salt is going to be expensive. Those aren't your everyday normal machines.
If it were my millions, I wouldn't think twice and get the Okuma. If I were a Mazak guy I'd get the Mazak. Because if you can afford $1million, then it's safe to say you can afford $1.5million.

 

[Scruffy887]

Any machine that size worth it's salt is going to be expensive. Those aren't your everyday normal machines.
If it were my millions, I wouldn't think twice and get the Okuma. If I were a Mazak guy I'd get the Mazak. Because if you can afford $1million, then it's safe to say you can afford $1.5million.

I agree 100%. I cannot afford to buy cheap machines. Oldest Mazak now 23 years old and still making good parts every day. Don't forget to include the price of the concrete work needed.

 

[MwTech Inc]

False economy buying.........typical though....
Top end machine is 20% higher than others so you spend 80% for a lower grade machine.
Then you live with lower grade results..

 

[DouglasJRizzo]

Hello everybody. First, post so forgive me if I make any mistakes.

I'm helping my company find a large double-column CNC. We are looking for two machines. One with X:6m|236" Y:3m|118" and Z:1m|40" and another with Y:3m|118" X: 1.5m|58" Z:.8m|31" travels

We are a job shop so our work varies a lot but it's almost always stainless steel, A36 plates, carbon steel.

So far I've contacted Okuma, Mazak, and Doosan. I've also contacted some brands from Taiwan such as Kao ming, Toyoda, and Vision Wide.

Okuma and Mazak are too expensive. I haven't quoted the double-column mill yet but I can see where it's going from other quotes I received from them.
Doosan seems like a great option, I'm heavily considering them, but I'm still waiting on the quote.

What are your guy's opinions on the Taiwanese brands? I know I won't receive the type same support as I would from a major brand like the others I mentioned.

For my type of work, what's better? a double-column mill or a moving gantry mill? So far I've only been able to find a moving gantry mill from Toyoda.

Are box ways worth it for doing heavy cuts with steel?

Thank you in advance

The Doosan is a great value. Granted I'm a little biased, but for the money, a great machine. The Okuma and Mazak are top drawer all the way.
Some of the Taiwanese brands are better than others. I worked in a shop that had both Toyoda and Kao Ming, and they really loved the Toyoda. The Kao Ming was a great machine, but they had a harder time with support for some reason.

 

[JMC]

We have a Toyoda SB316 with the extended Y and Z travels, and a autochange 90deg head that can rotate in 5 deg increments. The integration of the 90 head is very well done. Programming is super easy, and tool changing from vertical to horizontal is seamless.

The machine itself is very robust and has had no major issues in the 3 years its been on the floor. Very few minor issues as far as that goes.

If we were in the market, we would buy another. It has been a great machine.

 

[Ox]

Toyoda is made in Taiwan these days?

Surprised that we are not hearing of the Chinc's invading Taiwan right now!
I would have expected them to take advantage of the situation in Eastern Blok.



-----------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[EmGo]

Toyoda is made in Taiwan these days?

No, still Japanese ...

Surprised that we are not hearing of the Chinc's invading Taiwan right now!
I would have expected them to take advantage of the situation in Eastern Blok.

Ox, I'm going to pretend I didn't see that. It's beneath you on all levels. It's also a stupid statement, you are normally smarter than that.

 

[DDoug]

I agree 100%. I cannot afford to buy cheap machines. Oldest Mazak now 23 years old and still making good parts every day. Don't forget to include the price of the concrete work needed.

This ^^^.
I noticed that some of the larger machines need extensive foundations
so make sure this is factored in.
I did one foundation for a very expensive machine, and when done detailing it up, said to the customer "You only got 1/2 of the machine from the vendor, the other half came in a premix truck".

 

[Garwood]

Toyoda is not a lower end builder nor Taiwanese.

 

[Ox]

Toyoda is not a lower end builder nor Taiwanese.

Historically - I know that you are correct, but that doesn't mean that things haven't changed over the years.
And I doo recall someone having an issue with one of their VMC's a while back.
There's not all that many of their machines out there, so a bad review goes further than one from Haas...
So - that kind'a makes a fella wonder...

And this has nothing to doo with hips on an HMC!


-----------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[EmGo]

There's not all that many of their machines out there, so a bad review goes further than one from Haas...

So - that kind'a makes a fella wonder...

I remember that thread (as much as the failing brain can remember anything) and if I gottit right, that was a brand new model, maybe a show floor purchase ? HBM ? Had a lot of trouble but Toyoda did cooperate and eventually ironed it all out, just a lot of frustration during the process ?

Unfortunately, nobody's perfect but Toyoda does seem to be good quality. Better than Mazak, for example (insert shit-stirring emoticon, along with the "likes" button, I can't get to the advanced ones)

 

[Orange Vise]

I remember that thread (as much as the failing brain can remember anything) and if I gottit right, that was a brand new model, maybe a show floor purchase ? HBM ? Had a lot of trouble but Toyoda did cooperate and eventually ironed it all out, just a lot of frustration during the process ?

Unfortunately, nobody's perfect but Toyoda does seem to be good quality. Better than Mazak, for example (insert shit-stirring emoticon, along with the "likes" button, I can't get to the advanced ones)

That was a Japanese-built HMC run by PM user PsychoMill. Chip evac issues, IIRC. He eventually sold the machine.

There was a separate thread about VMCs. A different PM user had their 50x25 class machine that was built by Awea in Taiwan. The story was the machine ate spindles due to coolant ingress.

Both of these happened well over a decade ago.

 

[EmGo]

There was a separate thread about VMCs. A different PM user had their 50x25 class machine that was built by Awea in Taiwan. The story was the machine ate spindles due to coolant ingress.

Had an Awea in one shop. Not impressed. Funny you would mention the spindle, one of the things I fixed, bearing preload was off in lalaland. But the rest of the machine was nothing to write home about either. I would not recommend them. If this place allowed .mov files I could upload one that would deter anyone from buying.

Not sure what they have to do with Toyoda ?

Wonder what happened to Psychomill ? He seemed to have his poop well-compacted

 

[alphonso]

One of my customers has a Toyoda VMC, 5 0r 6 years old. Not sure of size but it is 50 taper. Has eaten at least one spindle.

I have a 22 year old Tree labeled Kao Ming V1500. The only real problems we have had with it are the tool magazine - Gifu brand.

 

[Orange Vise]

Had an Awea in one shop. Not impressed. Funny you would mention the spindle, one of the things I fixed, bearing preload was off in lalaland. But the rest of the machine was nothing to write home about either. I would not recommend them. If this place allowed .mov files I could upload one that would deter anyone from buying.

Not sure what they have to do with Toyoda ?

I think it was private labeled at the time.

 

[Zeuserdoo]

Toyoda is not a lower end builder nor Taiwanese.

I wouldn't count on that. We have 90% DMG Mori's, and a couple of our low end machines while designed in Japan, are put together in China.

 

[2outof3]

Toyada has private labeled the Awea machines for more than a dozen years. Many others have done the same. They also private label Taiwan Takisawa now for the lathe side.

Most of the Japanese builders are not making non W double columns. Okuma, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (now Nidec), Toshiba and SNK are the big builders of double columns. Okuma and MHI/Nidec, Toshiba do full build ups in the factory before shipping to the customer. SNK used to (not sure of today) do the first assembly on your floor leading to long installation times. Non W machines will limit the height of the parts you can machine comfortably.