Lathe turret clearance

[SeymourDumore]

Time for a new 2 ax lathe addition, and I am at the end of my wits trying to find a machine that fits my most important requirement: Turret clearance around the chuck!


I have a 2001 Haas SL10. 10 station turret, 6" chuck, turret size face-to-face is 13" ( old and unusual as it was from the first series, but I love it )
I also have a Mori Duraturn. 12 station turret, 10" chuck, turret size face-to-face is 20"

On the Haas turet, stations 1 through 5 are OD tools, 6 through 10 are ID
On the Dura, 12 through 5 are OD, 6 through 11 are ID

On both of these machines, there are absolutely no issues with clearance around the chuck, not even if the jaws are extended by as much as 1".
I DO NOT STAGGER TOOLS, NOR DO I EVER FUCKING REMOVE TOOLS!!! because there is always plenty enough clearance!!!
I can cut off .02 away from the chuck face with Station 5, while there is a 1.5" insert drill in Station 6
I can rough a bore to a 6" depth below the chuck's face with a tool in Station 7, finish it with a tool in Station 8, create an ID thread with Station 9 and groove with Station 10.
I can spot, dill, finish bore a port, single point thread, thread relieve the back of the thread of a part with a .250 id, all tools are in stations 6,7,8,9,10.
That is 5 consecutive tool stations working at literally the very center of the spindle and at the face of the chuck.

I must re-iterate:
I DO NOT STAGGER TOOLS, NOR DO I EVER FUCKING REMOVE TOOLS!!!

Well, it has become painfully fucking obvious that there are no machines currently being offered by any builder that would fit that bill as far as I can tell.
Not one!
None!
Zero!
Nada!

So, my question is:
How do you guys solve turret interference issues?
I am going to buy an 8" machine with a 2.5" bar capacity, 12 station turret AND a tailstock within the next 30 days. That is a fact!
I am willing to compromise on staggering tools.
I AM NOT willing to remove tools to resolve interference issues!!! That is also a fact!!!

In a typical fashion, Haas had an absolutely genius idea of offering the ST-20 machine with an option of a BMT65 turret without the motor.
Absolutely brilliant idea as it gives the user all the clearance around an 8" chuck anyone would ever need!
No built in motor, no live tools, none of that. Just a plane-jane oversized BMT-65 turret to provide the required chuck clearance.
Problem: once again in a typical Haas fashion, some dumbass idiot at Haas Oxnard decided that the tailstock travel stops short by like 7+ inches from the face of the jaws!!!
I mean WTF!!!

Then there is Doosan ( very strong contender at this point )
I was a bit hesitantly willing to compromise and go with a Y axis configuration of their Puma or Lynx line, as long as the turret clearance requirements were met.
Well, them guys (Doosan) managed to specify a puny fucking BMT-45 turret exclusively on their Y axis machines, thereby killing any and all interference advantages I needed!

So, as someone who has never had to stagger tools on a 2 axis machine I am back to the question: How do you deal with turret clearance WHILE NOT REMOVING TOOLS!!!

 

[EmGo]

So, as someone who has never had to stagger tools on a 2 axis machine I am back to the question: How do you deal with turret clearance WHILE NOT REMOVING TOOLS!!!

Get a Cinturn CU or a CC with a swingup

They have a 3" through hole, too. I think someone was rebuilding them ?

 

[JohannesL]

Sounds like the Haas ST-20 comes close to what you want.

Maybe you can solve the tailstock reach with some tooling? Seems like it would be the easier solution.

 

[DDoug]

I always wondered about this set-up, seen it a few times, and IIRC one model with a second turret down below. It was someone's attempt (good or bad) to solve some problem....
(more clearance or more rigidity or ?)
Giddings and Lewis 15U CNC lathe | eBay

 

[gregormarwick]

I think realistically you are looking for a bigger lathe and putting an 8" chuck on it.

Victor have a sort of inbetweener in the VTurn-A200, with an 8" chuck but a BMT55 turret on the Y axis model. That model appears to be fairly modular available with/without Y axis, integrated motor spindle, subspindle and so on and so forth, so it's possible they might be able to configure you a basic 2ax model with the BMT55 turret if you asked.

Nice thing about Victor is that they have the turret/chuck interference diagrams plainly printed on their sales brochures.

Victor Taichung Vturn-A200 Multitasking Turning Center | Quick Production by Innovative 3rd Turret!

Note that I do not own that specific model so I can't say if it fits your requirements or not. I have two larger Victor lathes that have proven themselves to be solid workhorses.

 

[Philabuster]

So, as someone who has never had to stagger tools on a 2 axis machine I am back to the question: How do you deal with turret clearance WHILE NOT REMOVING TOOLS!!!

As you stated, it's a matter of geometry. Larger turret diameter in relation to chuck size = more adjacent tool clearance.

 

[DouglasJRizzo]

I never liked the smaller turrets on the Doosan live tool machines. One of the few real complaints I ever had when working there.
I stagger the tools OD/ID/OD/ID on my Okuma and never an issue.

 

[Ox]

Can't say that I have much issue on any of my machines, but I'm 20 yrs out of date...

Can you opt for the 10 position top plate?

Or, get the 10" machine and put an 8" chuck on it?


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[Schjell]

I've only got two years experience, but how do you get away with not removing long drills and boring bars if you're doing OD work close to the chuck? I have my index drill in T11 and my boring bar in T7.
On many parts I need to add a M0 and tool change to add/remove these before doing work close to chuck.

My next machine is going to be an Integrex, since we never seem to make the same parts twice I fantasize about having a 100+ magazine where I never need to swap tools..

 

[Ox]

I have a customer with an Integrex. (20-25 yrs old))
"An" - meaning that they got rid of one, and still have one.

This one is down for a month, then runs for a week, then down for a month, repeat.

I have no clue anything about it, but the hourly rate to keep that thing going is WAY above anything that I can charge!


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[Schjell]

Sounds awful. From what I understand the Mazak is a good step up from the Haas but still not top notch.
The biggest machining company in my area has a lot of Mazaks though, so local service support should be very good. Not sure of how rigid they are though compared to a sturdy turret, but that being said I see that they make combination machines with a small turret below. With a zillion models it's hard for a novice to figure out what's best for us.

 

[EmGo]

I always wondered about this set-up, seen it a few times, and IIRC one model with a second turret down below. It was someone's attempt (good or bad) to solve some problem....

G&L did that on many (most ?) of their lathes. They were also flat-bed machines with a slanted bed turret hidden under the covers. Similar idea to the CC series from Cincinnati, the i.d. tools would pass by the chuck when o.d. turning. G&L was some nice stuff.

Modern mills may be nicer but I'll take an antique lathe over a modern one any day of the week; they are much better machines.

 

[Ox]

Yeah, the twin upper turrets were pretty common on lathes in the bigger sizes as you go.
Ones that I have seen index together as well. (both turrets index with the same code - a mechanical link between)
IDK if they all did that?


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[SeymourDumore]

I've only got two years experience, but how do you get away with not removing long drills and boring bars if you're doing OD work close to the chuck?.

Very simple : Have a large enough turret!
I've listed the sizes of both of my turrets. Neither of the requires the removal of any tools, no matter what I am doing!

As for larger machine with an 8" chuck: No Go!

First, typically the turrets are the same on both, 8" and 10" machine.
Second, a 10" machine will typically have an A2-8 spindle to allow for the 3.0" spindle bore.
8" chucks OTOH are A2-6 mount, and we've discussed a little while ago, you can put a larger chuck on a smaller nos, bot not the other way around.

 

[Ox]

But how about a 10 pos top plate that would be std for the "Big Bore" optioned machine, but with the smaller bore spindle?

Have you looked at any of Hardinge's machines?
I have 3 of them. All different configs, and I don't have that issue on my machines.

Again - mine are all older now, but I would think that if they built them this way then, they would still today?

Also - there is more to the equazsion than the OAL D of the top plate.
How far doo the drill holders stand off yet?
Depending on if you are looking at a VDI turret, or if the stick tools stay in the top plate, or ..... ????



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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[Schjell]

Thanks, gotcha! I've got 10" chuck and often get into trouble with neighboring tool. Try to stagger with radial tools next to long axial ones, but there's always something that needs to go

 

[SeymourDumore]

Looked at the Hardinge brochures, but conveniently they do not disclose any information about the turret size.
Will stop by Morris this Wednesday to get a brochure or sumthin.

As far as used-to-build-should-still-build .... well, my Mori would be a very good example of that not being the case!
If anything, they even went smaller than other builders.

No VDI, all bolt-on turrets.
The ID holders stick off a bit less than .250 from the face of the turret, but even they do not interfere on mine unless the jaws are extended.

Ox, do you stagger your tools?
Do you ever have to remove anything due to clearance?
Maybe I am just foo fat and happy with what I have now and have not had to consider different tool arrangements.

 

[Ox]

Can you get / make taller drill holders?
What is max height of the toolholder that will clear the tailstock and sheet-metal?
If you are running the shortest, that may get'chew in more trouble.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[EmGo]

As far as used-to-build-should-still-build .... well, my Mori would be a very good example of that not being the case!

They also made the turret lift up off the bed under cutting loads. It's good that they are nicely made, otherwise they pretty much do everything wrong.

There were good reasons to buy American-built machine tools ...

 

[Vancbiker]

.......I am willing to compromise on staggering tools........

If you are willing to stagger tools, wouldn't most 8" chuck, 2.5 bar capacity machines work? I just looked at a Takisawa LA-200 brochure and it seems that with a 12 station turret and staggering it clears. If that same machine was ordered with a 10 station turret it looks like it would clear without staggering.