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Clark Forklift Pertronix Distributor Issue

RandR10

Plastic
Joined
Jul 24, 2022
First time posting here so if I break a rule, go easy on me :).

Anyway, I recently bought an old Clark C300-40 forklift with a Continental Y112 4-cyl that ran good when I bought it and just needed the lift cylinder repacked. I got that done and on a quick test run it ran good about halfway up my driveway then started running real rough, plus it was making a noise like when you've got a bearing on a skateboard going bad, and a little metallic tick, tick, tick. It would stop for about 30 seconds, then start again. I thought I was having a nightmare and the engine had wiped a bearing at first, but it had good oil pressure the whole time and the tick noise wasn't loud enough to be a knock. It was coming from the center of the engine where the distributor is, so I pulled off the distributor cap and everything looked good until I touched the rotor. It moved back and forth about 1/4" and would rotate about 15-20 degrees, so just worn right out on the bushing and the drive pin. Tick noise was the rotor hitting the cap terminals. While the cap was off, I squirted some oil down the shaft to see if the squalling noise would quiet. It did, but it continued to run rough intermittently. Time for a new distributor.

Saw this post here https://www.practicalmachinist.com/forum/posts/855029/ and thought the upgrade to a Pertronix electronic distributor was a good idea considering that it seems to be the only aftermarket unit available and I really don't like dealing with points. Bought the D41-05A unit for my engine and here I am installing it today. Installed new unit, hooked up red to positive and black to negative on the coil as per the instructions, swapped on a new set of spark plug wires, cranked over and no fire. Checked for spark, no spark.

So here's what I've done so far for troublesooting:

-Checked voltage at the coil positive terminal to make sure it's not starving for voltage from a ballast resistor. 12.8 volts at the coil. Strong battery and very little resistance in the line.​
-I re-read the instructions and found that they mentioned primary resistance in the coil being an issue. For a 4-banger they want 3.0 ohms primary resistance, or to add a resistor on the positive side to bring it up to 3.0+ ohms. Mine measured as 1.5 ohms primary resistance, so I added a ballast resistor between the coil positive and the distributor positive which brought it up to ~3.5 ohms of total resistance. Still no spark.​
-Pertronix instructions didn't show any wiring beyond their install, so I checked a diagram online of a typical GM ignition setup and I found that it didn't have a chassis ground going to the coil negative terminal which was how this setup was wired when I took it apart. Only a positive wire to the distributor was present along with a chassis ground on the negative side of the coil. The GM diagram had a negative wire going to the coil and no chassis ground, and I read elsewhere that this will prevent spark, so I removed the chassis ground from the negative side of the coil and attached just the black wire from the distributor to it. Still no spark.​
-Just to make sure my positive lead wasn't giving me intermittent problems, I made up a test lead wired directly between battery positive to the coil positive. Still no spark.​

I've done a decent amount of reading on this and I'm thinking one of two things:
  1. Because I had this wired wrong from the start, I maybe burned up the electronics in the distributor. Would improper resistance on the coil or grounding the negative terminal to chassis ground cause that? Bear in mind that it had good spark with the old points distributor and that this unit has maybe 10 minutes total time in which it had current running through it, and no more than a couple minutes continuous.
  2. I got a dud. I'm leaning towards this one because from what I can gather, even poorly wired units will run fine for awhile then burn up, but they'll at least fire up and run at first. I had zero spark at any point.
Anybody got any more troubleshooting ideas before I return this thing and get a replacement?
 
I was recently looking at the Pertronix ignition system for my Clark, because I hate jacking with points too. I did some reading on them, iirc there was mention of them frying if not hooked up properly, might just depend on how wrong, idk. I ended up sticking with points because I was not sure if that was actually the problem, and new points were cheaper. Still not sure if its the problem because the points Clark sent were not right either, or they are right but distributor has been changed. Do some reading on the Pertronix, maybe I got that info confused with some other pos I worked on recently......
 
Continental distributors that arent worn out are rare as........Ive fitted many electronic units that came from TGR fork parts (Belgian ,have everything).......with complete sucess......I suggest even momentary reverse pole connection would have fried diodes in the ignition unit.
 
Wait wait
Don't most points systems use the points as ground?
Positive ignition direct to the coil points supplying ground except when open[the opening providing spark via field collapse]
Any other system would require 2 wires into the distributor[which you have now with power for the electronics, but usually not before]
SO ground the coil?

Unless my 30 some years of working on weird cars has me wrong
 
Continental distributors that arent worn out are rare as........Ive fitted many electronic units that came from TGR fork parts (Belgian ,have everything).......with complete sucess......I suggest even momentary reverse pole connection would have fried diodes in the ignition unit.
The only wiring errors I found was that I had the negative coil terminal connected to chassis ground and the sub-3.0 ohm coil resistance (which I have since compensated for with a resistor between the positive lead and the distributor positive as per the instructions). I don't think either of those things would burn up the module in less than 2 minutes. I did some more reading on this early this morning and the only thing I've read that will instantly cook one of these is as you described, applying full positive voltage to the black wire, so I'm really leaning towards this being bad from the factory. I bought it off of Amazon, so it's possible someone else bought it, burned it up then returned it, then they resold to me as new. I've had stuff like that happen with them. I'll be out in the shop in a few minutes. I want to take the cover off and see if the module looks burned up or if there's an alignment issue with the trigger wheel. Does anyone know if this is a reluctor or hall effect sensor I'm dealing with here?
 
Wait wait
Don't most points systems use the points as ground?
Positive ignition direct to the coil points supplying ground except when open[the opening providing spark via field collapse]
Any other system would require 2 wires into the distributor[which you have now with power for the electronics, but usually not before]
SO ground the coil?

Unless my 30 some years of working on weird cars has me wrong
Yeah, on the points setup, there was single wire from the positive terminal into the distributor and the coil negative terminal was wired to chassis ground (unless I'm remembering that wrong). So you're saying I had it correct the first time with keeping the chassis ground to the negative side of the coil? The Pertronix wiring diagram gives no guidance on this particular thing, although in the troubleshooting section they say it won't fire if something connected to the negative coil terminal is shorted to ground. :unsure: Regardless I'm getting no spark in either configuration.

Also, in case anyone is wondering, I've got very good ground at the distributor body and a strong 12.8-12.9 volts from the battery. I went in to the bore the distributor sits in with an 80 grit flap wheel on a dremel tool and shined it right up before install. Old distributor was frozen in the head, so I had to clean up a lot of corrosion before the new unit would even fit in the bore. I'm now getting no measurable voltage drop grounding my multimeter to the distributor body vs the negative post on the battery.
 
Mystery solved, sort of. Pulled the cap, rotor and cover off and found a burn hole through the side of the ignitor module. I guess I should assume this is something I did. If someone could give me guidance on what I did wrong here to make sure I don't burn up another one, it would be much appreciated (probably give Pertronix a call tomorrow). I am near 100% certain that black wire never saw battery voltage. When I wired everything up the battery wasn't even in the forklift because I removed it along with the side door to get better access.
 
Yeah, on the points setup, there was single wire from the positive terminal into the distributor and the coil negative terminal was wired to chassis ground (unless I'm remembering that wrong).
Pretty sure you are remembering it wrong.

Original wiring, unless they do this differently on forklifts
Coil + power all the time. OR through ballast resistor
Coil negative to points connection on distributor. No other connection to coil negative

I would think Pertronix, although it has been 20 years since I touched one, the only difference is you have a 12 volt line going to the distributor to run the electronics there.
The points work by grounding the coil. IF the coil is otherwise grounded there will be no spark
 
Pretty sure you are remembering it wrong.

Original wiring, unless they do this differently on forklifts
Coil + power all the time. OR through ballast resistor
Coil negative to points connection on distributor. No other connection to coil negative

I would think Pertronix, although it has been 20 years since I touched one, the only difference is you have a 12 volt line going to the distributor to run the electronics there.
The points work by grounding the coil. IF the coil is otherwise grounded there will be no spark
Yeah, maybe I did remember wrong. This shouldn't burn up the module though, should it?
 
FYI the 15-20 degrees of rotation in the rotor may very well be the centrifugal advance, but I get that it was worn out anyway.

This thread and many other like it in the car forums are why I've never gone with a Pertronics setup. Even it this one was installer error you can read many stories about Pertronics failures. Talk of decreased quality is also abundant. Both of my Yales (one 6cyl flathead, one Slant 6) have modified GM HEI distributors in them with zero problems in over 2 decades with the flathead and 1+ decade with the slant. Neither has ever been touched since initial install. The one in the flathead was right out of the junkyard, same parts still in it, and the one in the slant was bought new.

My small Hyster has a Y112 and I have a small cap V8 HEI that is destined to go in that soon. Pertronics sounds simpler, but in the long run Pertronics ain't GM HEI and never will be. Not even close. Anyone that has the use of an engine lathe can make the HEI fit in most any engine.
 
FYI the 15-20 degrees of rotation in the rotor may very well be the centrifugal advance, but I get that it was worn out anyway.

This thread and many other like it in the car forums are why I've never gone with a Pertronics setup. Even it this one was installer error you can read many stories about Pertronics failures. Talk of decreased quality is also abundant. Both of my Yales (one 6cyl flathead, one Slant 6) have modified GM HEI distributors in them with zero problems in over 2 decades with the flathead and 1+ decade with the slant. Neither has ever been touched since initial install. The one in the flathead was right out of the junkyard, same parts still in it, and the one in the slant was bought new.

My small Hyster has a Y112 and I have a small cap V8 HEI that is destined to go in that soon. Pertronics sounds simpler, but in the long run Pertronics ain't GM HEI and never will be. Not even close. Anyone that has the use of an engine lathe can make the HEI fit in most any engine.
Had that idea initially, but this drop in option just seemed so easy. Starting to regret that decision now.
 
FYI the 15-20 degrees of rotation in the rotor may very well be the centrifugal advance, but I get that it was worn out anyway.

This thread and many other like it in the car forums are why I've never gone with a Pertronics setup. Even it this one was installer error you can read many stories about Pertronics failures. Talk of decreased quality is also abundant. Both of my Yales (one 6cyl flathead, one Slant 6) have modified GM HEI distributors in them with zero problems in over 2 decades with the flathead and 1+ decade with the slant. Neither has ever been touched since initial install. The one in the flathead was right out of the junkyard, same parts still in it, and the one in the slant was bought new.

My small Hyster has a Y112 and I have a small cap V8 HEI that is destined to go in that soon. Pertronics sounds simpler, but in the long run Pertronics ain't GM HEI and never will be. Not even close. Anyone that has the use of an engine lathe can make the HEI fit in most any engine.
When you get roundtoit, I'd be interested in a description and pics of how to do it.
 
I have mixed feelings about Pretronix. In vehicles, I have accidiently hooked them up wrong and instantly let the smoke out. I'm pretty sure I did it once and then a friend giving me a hand did it again years later on a different vehicle. I also had it die because the key was left on for half an hour.

On the other hand....

I bought a Komatsu forklift that ran like shit. I rebuilt the propane system, I replaced all the ignition system components (except the pertronix. Getting ready to pull the head I had a strange feeling it was spark and not fuel or mechanical. I put an inline spark tester on it and it and one of the cylinders was totally dead, no spark. Three had great spark. I pulled the pertronix rotor out and found one of the magnets had fallen out.

I called pertronix and they overnighted me a new rotor and said that they had a problem with this in the past.

I did think that was good service and liked they owned up to it.

That Komatsu gets the piss run out of it and has always runs great for 6 or so years that I've had it now.
 
Update:

Finally got the new module yesterday and dropped it in, being sure to not have the battery hooked up until all the wires were attached. Didn't want to fire initially because I had re-routed the wires and accidentally switched 3 and 4. Straightened that out and she runs like a dream now. Smooth as can be. Dialed in the initial timing and played with the fuel a bit. Really good power. I think I may want to add back in a little fuel on the power circuit because it was a little sluggish up my hill on the last tweak, but it was 9:30 at night and I had been working since 6am, so I parked it.

While waiting on the module I rebuilt the whole wiring harness. I found cracked and broken insulation all over the wires that were exposed to engine heat. Entirely possible I dragged the negative lead on the distributor across one that's just hot all the time. That's what I'm telling myself anyway. I could swear I never touched that lead to the positive side, but who knows.

On that note, I find it kind of odd that there's no protection built in considering how common it is that these fail in this way. Would it make sense to put a fuse or maybe a diode on that line to prevent current from feeding back and cooking the module? Anyone familiar with electronics that could point me in the right direction on that? At 100 bucks a pop these things are damned expensive and not available locally so I'd like to make sure this doesn't happen again.
 
When you get roundtoit, I'd be interested in a description and pics of how to do it.

 

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Proper mechanical distributors are a lot more than $100 each new.........so the electronics isnt too bad.............in fact ,the sandblasters got ripped off by a supposed reconditioner who basically did nothing,bar a new coat of paint and a sticker........the guy has a big name in the sportscar electrics restoration field too.
 
I was recently looking at the Pertronix ignition system for my Clark, because I hate jacking with points too. I did some reading on them, iirc there was mention of them frying if not hooked up properly, might just depend on how wrong, idk. I ended up sticking with points because I was not sure if that was actually the problem, and new points were cheaper. Still not sure if its the problem because the points Clark sent were not right either, or they are right but distributor has been changed. Do some reading on the Pertronix, maybe I got that info confused with some other pos I worked on recently......
Another possibility is to keep points but use them to trigger an aftermarket CD ignition. I ran a Delta Mark 10 for years on vehicles with points and it's the best of both worlds, especially with the built-in switch bypass switch, which allows easy setting of dwell.

NOS Delta Mark 10s are available on ebay but the prices are steep. This article about a modern alternative, although written about vintage Fords should apply to any vehicle with points.

 
Proper mechanical distributors are a lot more than $100 each new.........so the electronics isnt too bad.............in fact ,the sandblasters got ripped off by a supposed reconditioner who basically did nothing,bar a new coat of paint and a sticker........the guy has a big name in the sportscar electrics restoration field too.
Matt I pointed me to these 4 cylinder HEI distributors. They are $100 complete. Rock Auto has them for $93. Coils range from $7 to $26. This IMO is the route to take for trouble free ignition that can be forgotten about after it's fitted and installed.

 
The problem is wear in the distributor...........the Delcos used on later stuff have no replaceable bearings,and a one diameter shaft......but even with that fixed,there is still wear in the advance mechanism.....there is a lot of small bearing surfaces in a distributor head..............now heres a funny thing......distributor makers put a little felt pad in the middle of the spindle top,under the rotor ,so you could drop in a bit of oil off the dipstick every time you checked the oil......thereby keeping the small bearings lubricated and like new.......but who bothered?
 








 
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