New Machine Day - Robot Invasion!

[Ox]

that's brilliant, looks like it's already at it's max Z to clear the partition though

The Brother guys can verify, but I am guessing that the spindle could retract in Y far enough to git away from the partition?


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[wheelieking71]

The Brother guys can verify, but I am guessing that the spindle could retract in Y far enough to git away from the partition?


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

Nope. At least not in an R650X1. Not sure about a 40-tool X2?
That is Y-home in the pic:

 

[GiroDyno]

Replace the stock table partition with one that has had the offending corner removed, and hang some a semi-truck-naked-lady-mud-flap from the corner of the machine partition.

 

[bryan_machine]

So I have this Ivory Tower thought that some equation of work-flow-value, part-size, workholding size, number of axes, etc. will inform whether to use a gripper, or an erowa style pallet loader, or an arm, or a scheme like in the video above.

But maybe that's too abstract, and it's really "what can our shop make work fast enough to make market and with a decent ROI, with tolerable risk/fear regarding vendors, alien programming environments, buggy stuff, and so on..."

 

[Kingbob]

So I have this Ivory Tower thought that some equation of work-flow-value, part-size, workholding size, number of axes, etc. will inform whether to use a gripper, or an erowa style pallet loader, or an arm, or a scheme like in the video above.

But maybe that's too abstract, and it's really "what can our shop make work fast enough to make market and with a decent ROI, with tolerable risk/fear regarding vendors, alien programming environments, buggy stuff, and so on..."

Right, we all want to make art, even the process can be art but the reality is that it's a competition and no one cares how the sausage is made

 

[wheelieking71]

So I have this Ivory Tower thought that some equation of work-flow-value, part-size, workholding size, number of axes, etc. will inform whether to use a gripper, or an erowa style pallet loader, or an arm, or a scheme like in the video above.

But maybe that's too abstract, and it's really "what can our shop make work fast enough to make market and with a decent ROI, with tolerable risk/fear regarding vendors, alien programming environments, buggy stuff, and so on..."

Exactly. To automate, just like the machine tools we are looking to feed, there is no one option does all.

Outside looking in:
Having seen most of the part pics Wruss has posted through the years, taking what little we know of his shop dynamic in to consideration,
and for reasons you have already eluded to, it looks to me like he made the best choice for his shop & work. I'm definitely tuned in for updates!

In comparison, my current shop & work: less man-power (less time to learn & perfect something new (alien programming)), my parts probably average around
50% or less the size of Wruss's parts (from what we have seen). The spindle gripper set-up pretty much exactly like the vid Matt posted makes perfect sense.

When I had an open PO for pretty much unlimited quantities, the Brother Flex with Nachi bot was perfect. (once running, god I hated that stupid pendant! LOL)

Dennis does tons of 5X stuff, and the pallets serve him very well.

There are LOTS of options out there.

 

[gustafson]

Exactly. To automate, just like the machine tools we are looking to feed, there is no one option does all.

Outside looking in:
Having seen most of the part pics Wruss has posted through the years, taking what little we know of his shop dynamic in to consideration,
and for reasons you have already eluded to, it looks to me like he made the best choice for his shop & work.

I think this is an important point
We is just talking, I am pretty sure no one here is trying to pretend we know what he should or should not do.

 

[cnctoolcat]

Don't forget, a straightforward way to automate is a bar-fed multi-axis lathe. If your parts can fit within the spindle bore's capacity, you're in business.

Going all out, a high-tool capacity Integrex-type machine could whittle 5-axis parts for days if not weeks, with the sub-spindle completing them and dropping them out.

Count the dollars while you're at the beach!

ToolCat

 

[Ox]

It's really not quite that easy.

A 4X VMC is WAY cheaper than a fancy lathe.
Prolly about 3 / 1
Then all the live toys that you haf'ta buy, and maintain.
And those live toys, even on a good day are not on par with even a cheap Haas mill.
And then you have the MAINT on an 8 axis machine with slides and way-covers out the wazoo.

I am chasing Fanuc issues currently on an 8x - there's a lot more to go wrong!
(hopefully some new IGBT's in [one of] the P/S's will fix, but we will see...)
The bank of amps in my 8X is bigger than a 2x lathe and a 4x mill put together.

Yes, they are great, and I make my living off of MS/MSY lathes, but they cost more, and they are not nearly as reliable as a 2x lathe with a 3/4x mill setting beside it, which together will make more throughput per hour together (depending on the 2nd opp needed) than the fancy machine will at less cost.

Just like anything else, it has it's place, and it can venture outside the wire a bit, but once you get outside the wire, the efficiency starts to slide quickly compared to other options.
(wire - sweet spot / target area)


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[cnctoolcat]

Ox,

I agree with the assessment on live-tool lathes and similar.

For the ultimate platform of lathe automation for complex parts, you need an Integrex or similar: massive hp and torque on the main milling head, with 40-240 tools (no live-tool limitations or rebuilding), powerful sub-spindles and a lower-turret if needed.

Make about anything you could dream up within the machine's capacity! And with a bar-feeder and/or robot, she could produce a long time unattended with proven processes...

ToolCat

 

[Ox]

The Integrex line can doo about anything, but they don't doo it fast at all.
So you have a very expensive platform machine that is slow. (but capable - I agree)
I would not recommend anyone try to compete with one of these for production parts that can be made otherwise.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[chad883]

We have 2 Integrex. It depends on the options as to the speed. Our big one is a 300 with 120 tools. Tool change takes a bit on this machine since the tool has to be transfered in 2 directions from the chain to the arm. The head has to be in position, then the tool is transported parallel to the Z axis, then brought towards the operator to the change arm, then the tool change happens. On our 100 we have 40 tools. The tool chain travels in Z with the head and only moves to tool towards the operator to the change arm. The tool is in the ready position at the change arm before the tool change making for faster tool changes.

Another factor is the material and tool size. If you are running on a Y axis lathe you are speed limited. Both integrex have 10K mill spindles. If you can use that speed, you could get a faster cycle than on a Y lathe. With the live tools being in a mill spindle you will get a better finish, so you should not have to find the sweet spot of a live tool.

 

[bryan_machine]

And machines like the Willemins - if the work fits in the sizes offered. They strike me as less cramped and collision prone than say an Integrex of similar size - but that's based on youtube videos.

And the question of what level of $, space, staff support the workflow will support still applies.

 

[wheelieking71]

And the question of what level of $, space, staff support the workflow will support still applies.

This right here ^^^^ is really the meat & potatoes behind most every automation decision.
The only variable I would add (closely related to staff support) is shop fluidity. Wruss went haas cause he is a happy haas owner, with a haas shop.
I would go Brother cause I'm a happy Brother owner.
If I had bigger parts? I would go 40taper Doosan VC, rotary pallet VMC, with spindle gripper.
Cause I will NEVER purchase another haas anything. And I am a HUGE rotary pallet VMC fan.

This thread makes me want to spend money. Thanks a lot Wruss! LOL

 

[Ox]

Note:

Hardinge had a 40 taper vertical pallet swapper at The Show.
I think it was a 1000.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[david n]

Note:

Hardinge had a 40 taper vertical pallet swapper at The Show.
I think it was a 1000.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

V480 APC $123k

https://www.hardinge.com/machine-inventory-sale/?1666391825577

 

[Magister_Ludi]

Hello! Does anybody know unofficial suppliers of EMAG production?