Customer's customer cancels order due to a couple of bad apple parts...

[HIT-N-RUN]

Need some advice. Been doing a particular job over the course of 15 years. Job came back this year. Process never changed. My customers QC have always passed these parts through to end user. Recently I got an email complaining one of the welds failed at their customers site. These are 1/2" to 3/8" 110 copper terminal lugs that are silver brazed together. There was some cavitation issues due to tight fit up and high temp flux gassing up top lug creating cavitation. It failed. We never had a history of failure with our process of these parts.

This new batch they ordered, the issue was addressed. Parts made, parts delivered, parts accepted, parts rejected out of fear these would also fail. Come to find out, after all these years, they want a 1/4" fillet around the joint... fillet weld symbol is on the drawing without filler size call out, no weld process or filler metal call out on drawing in the fish tail of weld symbol. The engineer has no clue what process is to be performed, they just want a 1/4 fillet around joint... ok. I request an updated drawing with a weld process call out. Crickets.

Next day, we have a meeting, QC/Purchaser/QC director and an engineer. I address the issues the part failed from and let them know I was confident I could re-work them and or replace them with a new FAI report. I offered them a vast array of solutions without excuses. They agree to it. 2 days later, their customer cancels the entire order over $35K worth of parts and my customer is now requesting a credit memo for this job they haven't paid for yet. I'm honestly fine with the fact their customer cancelled the order because they didn't want to use my parts, I'll take accountability for the ones that failed and at the same time it's huge relief I won't have to re-work those parts, there's a lot of hours invested into them already.

I do feel I need to be compensated for at least my costs of raw materials, hardware and tin plating process, about $9K worth. I don't feel it's right to take a total loss on the job after my customer made an agreement allowing me to redeem my work.

Any thoughts, suggestions and opinions would be appreciated. This is my first time hitting a wall like this with our business. Been pretty lucky over the years to have a lot of good customers who appreciate us as a small business that provides them with quality work and we stand behind our work, especially when it's not satisfactory. I also understand the position I may have put their reputation on the line.

Thanks for reading.

 

[Milland]

Terrible position to be in. I can't advise much here but to keep your feelings in check if they continue to push you. If you have a company lawyer I'd consult with them, especially on exposure if your ex-customer hits you with their own losses on deliverable schedule.

As to whether you'll recover your OOP, time will tell. I would not offer them a credit unless ultimately you could recover your loss in (guaranteed) future work. If they're playing games with you now, it's likely they'll do so in the future, so perhaps walking away as whole as possible is the best option.

 

[awander]

... I also understand the position I may have put their reputation in as well with their customer being LAM....

Thanks for reading.

What's "LAM"?

 

[john.k]

Always a risk with third party parts...........you dont know this issue hasnt been going back and forth for a long time .........the chance to fix it early long gone.

 

[HIT-N-RUN]

Terrible position to be in. I can't advise much here but to keep your feelings in check if they continue to push you. If you have a company lawyer I'd consult with them, especially on exposure if your ex-customer hits you with their own losses on deliverable schedule.

As to whether you'll recover your OOP, time will tell. I would not offer them a credit unless ultimately you could recover your loss in (guaranteed) future work. If they're playing games with you now, it's likely they'll do so in the future, so perhaps walking away as whole as possible is the best option.

This has also weighed heavily on my mind, just walk away as whole as possible. Thanks for the feed back.

 

[Milland]

This has also weighed heavily on my mind, just walk away as whole as possible. Thanks for the feed back.

XXX XXXXch.

I'd take the company name out of this conversation! You can edit the first post to "X-out" their name, too.

As I mentioned, if you have a lawyer I'd speak with them...

 

[standardparts]

You shipped a bad part(s) and gave your client a reason to go someplace else.
Why burn bridges?----Eat the loss, move on and don't look back.

 

[75sv1]

My take is if they didn't specify it on the drawing, then they eat it. A drawing or 'Blue Print' is a 'Legal Technical' contract. So, if you fulfilled that contract, then they owe the money. If they change the drawing, then you can requote. I would contact a lawyer as has been suggested.

 

[DDoug]

Need some advice. Been doing a particular job over the course of 15 years. Job came back this year. Process never changed. My customers QC have always passed these parts through to end user. Recently I got an email complaining one of the welds failed at their customers site. These are 1/2" to 3/8" 110 copper terminal lugs that are silver brazed together. There was some cavitation issues due to tight fit up and high temp flux gassing up top lug creating cavitation. It failed. We never had a history of failure with our process of these parts.

This new batch they ordered, the issue was addressed. Parts made, parts delivered, parts accepted, parts rejected out of fear these would also fail.

Just how did you verify the replacement parts do not suffer from the same braze failure ?
Did you pull test 100% of the parts to the design load ?
X-ray 100% of the parts ?

 

[standardparts]

Just how did you verify the replacement parts do not suffer from the same braze failure ?
Did you pull test 100% of the parts to the design load ?
X-ray 100% of the parts ?

Yeah....At this point might be a wise choice to walk away and not engage in action that will further document potential liability.

 

[HIT-N-RUN]

Just how did you verify the replacement parts do not suffer from the same braze failure ?
Did you pull test 100% of the parts to the design load ?
X-ray 100% of the parts ?

Yes pull tested 100% of new batch before sending out for plating. I also suggested to them I could do ultra sonic x ray as extra measure.

 

[triumph406]

My take is if they didn't specify it on the drawing, then they eat it. A drawing or 'Blue Print' is a 'Legal Technical' contract. So, if you fulfilled that contract, then they owe the money. If they change the drawing, then you can requote. I would contact a lawyer as has been suggested.

The blue print is not a contract.

The Purchase Order and the wording therein is the contract.

There could be little technical information on the drawing other then say overall dimensions., but could certainly be in the text of the Purchase Order. I get drawings were there's a whole list of specifications not listed on the drawing, but are contained in seperate documents.

Go to a Lawyer if you think a letter or two from a Lawyer will help. If it gets to any type of litigation, it will become time consuming and expensive, with no guarantee of a successful outcome. I've seen situations resolved after a few letters from a Lawyer.

 

[HIT-N-RUN]

Yeah....At this point might be a wise choice to walk away and not engage in action that will further document potential liability.

Definitely walking away from this particular job. I'm just trying to

The blue print is not a contract.

The Purchase Order and the wording therein is the contract.

There could be little technical information on the drawing other then say overall dimensions., but could certainly be in the text of the Purchase Order. I get drawings were there's a whole list of specifications not listed on the drawing, but are contained in seperate documents.

Go to a Lawyer if you think a letter or two from a Lawyer will help. If it gets to any type of litigation, it will become time consuming and expensive, with no guarantee of a successful outcome. I've seen situations resolved after a few letters from a Lawyer.

I would like to try and resolve without threating with lawyers. I just need them to cover the cost of raw materials. They only lost a sale. They have other vendors who also supply this same part.

 

[Orange Vise]

I do feel I need to be compensated for at least my costs of raw materials, hardware and tin plating process, about $9K worth.

In this particular case, it'll cost you more than $9K to collect the $9K.

It's also not enough money to lose sleep over.

Sounds like the the customer of the customer needs a fall guy and you're that guy. It happens.

 

[William Payne]

My question is what was the weld procedure? Who developed the procedure? And who determined the procedure was up to the required standard?

In the welding world the procedure can be everything and you have to follow it to a T without deviation otherwise the liability can be huge.

If the procedure says hop on one leg 5 times, then 3 times to the left, 5 times to the right, then cough. You have to do that because if you don’t and something later happens which is determined to be due to a failure to follow procedure the liability is enormous.

Here is a great example of a weld related structural failure that caused the death of 123 people.

Alexander L. Kielland (platform) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

All due to a defect in a weld on a non structural bracket on one of the leg columns during manufacturing that over time fatigued and caused the structural failure of the entire leg upright.

I know that sounds overkill for what most people weld but it can be a big deal.

Milk company where I live lost millions of dollars of product and huge impact to their reputation when their product was contaminated by harmful bacteria due to a tiny weld defect that caused bacteria growth within a piece of sanitary pipe that the product went through.

This is why liability insurance is so important.

 

[JS]

I would walk, It's the no Asshole rule.......

 

[MCritchley]

I’m typically on the customer side of these conversations as we buy a lot of weird parts.

These failures could have cost the customer much more than 9 grand by the time they sequestered the parts and dealt with the ramifications of a failed part.
Bad situation for everyone, sorry it happened. They might be back as the next guy may not be able to do the job.

 

[Screwmachine]

They might be back as the next guy may not be able to do the job.

Considering how much effort you put into rectifying the issue, and the amount of time you've been doing it, I could really see this happening. Eat the cost. If they come back, tell them your new process controls pushe the price up a bit (to 9k more (plus a little) haha) .

Also, didn't see above so sorry if it's addressed, did they keep the parts? I had a customer reject a batch of parts I did, I knew they didn't know how to measure them or have the equipment, but one of their geniuses sent the parts back to me. I told them I wasn't able to do them any better (they were GD perfect), so sorry, no parts. They very quickly decided the parts were in tolerance. I'm sure it would have been different if I didn't have them in hand at that point.

 

[HIT-N-RUN]

Considering how much effort you put into rectifying the issue, and the amount of time you've been doing it, I could really see this happening. Eat the cost. If they come back, tell them your new process controls pushe the price up a bit (to 9k more (plus a little) haha) .

Also, didn't see above so sorry if it's addressed, did they keep the parts? I had a customer reject a batch of parts I did, I knew they didn't know how to measure them or have the equipment, but one of their geniuses sent the parts back to me. I told them I wasn't able to do them any better (they were GD perfect), so sorry, no parts. They very quickly decided the parts were in tolerance. I'm sure it would have been different if I didn't have them in hand at that point.

I did get them all back. Sitting on a pile of un-perfectly packaged parts, the way I got them back looks like an Amazon return. LOL!

 

[HIT-N-RUN]

My question is what was the weld procedure? Who developed the procedure? And who determined the procedure was up to the required standard?

In the welding world the procedure can be everything and you have to follow it to a T without deviation otherwise the liability can be huge.

If the procedure says hop on one leg 5 times, then 3 times to the left, 5 times to the right, then cough. You have to do that because if you don’t and something later happens which is determined to be due to a failure to follow procedure the liability is enormous.

Here is a great example of a weld related structural failure that caused the death of 123 people.

Alexander L. Kielland (platform) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

All due to a defect in a weld on a non structural bracket on one of the leg columns during manufacturing that over time fatigued and caused the structural failure of the entire leg upright.

I know that sounds overkill for what most people weld but it can be a big deal.

Milk company where I live lost millions of dollars of product and huge impact to their reputation when their product was contaminated by harmful bacteria due to a tiny weld defect that caused bacteria growth within a piece of sanitary pipe that the product went through.

This is why liability insurance is so important.

There is NO welding procedure/process call out on the drawing. The original engineer is deceased. Nobody determined the procedure was up to the required standard, they have no clue how to weld this part. They just want to see a fillet all the way around the joint, which the weld symbol for that is indicated.

Keep in mind this is 3/8" to 1/2" 110 copper. Most common practice for joint welding CU is MMAW (silver or silicon bronze brazing). This isn't a structural part, it's a terminal adapter that 600A runs through it... so they totally need a 1/4" leg around this joint...nope. Can't do it with brazing. Doing it with GMAW only cold welds the joint by bonding the filler metal with a leg from the filler. GTAW you need 500+ amps with 100% HE, water cooled torch and hope to hang in there jamming filler around with a hot torch. No thanks.

Hope I answered your first few questions.