Japanese finds

[M.B. Naegle]

With the Hydraulic vise: I have a few milling vises built in similar fashion and love them. Two made by Saunders in England, and the other has no name but I suspect it's an old Hilma or other German/Swiss. I've never had to take the screw mechanisms apart on them so I don't know how complicated they are, but the design makes for an incredibly smooth operation that puts a ton of force into the clamp with little effort.

Thanks for the thread. Its fun to see what's around "over there", more than what gets brought in for our market over here. I don't want to derail your thread with the politics of it all, but I've always admired how the Germans and Japanese went from the ashes of war to being THE world leaders in so many aspects of technology and manufacturing.

 

[Bakafish]

Do you know any Katakana? I have a very old sharpening stone that I use for razors with some (what I was told is probably) Katakana that looks like it was done by hand with a brush; always wondered what it said. I think it's quite a ways pre-WW2, due to the fact that the saw marks on the sides appear to be made with a hand saw rather than a rotary cutter.

That's a mix of characters, Katakana and Kanji which are Chinese characters. Japanese use 3 different character sets, 4 if you count latinization called Roma-ji, and two different ways of reading the ~2000 Kanji characters they adopted from the Chinese character set. As near as I can tell (and I'm not in any way qualified) that script is "サー上大ビキ" but a native would likely do a much better job of understanding it. One of the possible readings of the Kanji characters '上' is upper and '大' usually means great or large. Pretty sure boasting it is a top quality grade stone. But the Katakana character set is typically used to differentiate foreign words, so I suspect this is talking about the origin or type of the stone itself, using a foreign term. I just don't know much about this very specialized market. As you well know, wheatstone's, chisels, planes, saws and hammers are all traditional goods that have industries that are generational and often hundreds of years old. They are all collected and can be astonishingly expensive, but are also easy to counterfeit, misattribute or overvalue.

As far as dating anything based on the method of manufacture or processing, I'd caution you to not make any assumptions. Japanese do not tamper with a process in the name of efficiency, tradition will almost always win, especially with these sorts of items. Being hand sawn and chiseled is precisely why these are valued, and no one is going to quickly change that process in the name of selling more stones in a market that is steeped in tradition and reputation. I'm not at all implying that yours isn't old or valuable, just you would need a professional in the field to recognise that handwriting, the source of the stone itself and the quality of the sample to evaluate the age. For these 'traditional' stones, I doubt very much the tooling used to quarry them today is any different than it was 300 years ago, although I'll state again I'm not an expert in this field.

 

[eKretz]

That's a mix of characters, Katakana and Kanji which are Chinese characters. Japanese use 3 different character sets, 4 if you count latinization called Roma-ji, and two different ways of reading the ~2000 Kanji characters they adopted from the Chinese character set. As near as I can tell (and I'm not in any way qualified) that script is "サー上大ビキ" but a native would likely do a much better job of understanding it. One of the possible readings of the Kanji characters '上' is upper and '大' usually means great or large. Pretty sure boasting it is a top quality grade stone. But the Katakana character set is typically used to differentiate foreign words, so I suspect this is talking about the origin or type of the stone itself, using a foreign term. I just don't know much about this very specialized market. As you well know, wheatstone's, chisels, planes, saws and hammers are all traditional goods that have industries that are generational and often hundreds of years old. They are all collected and can be astonishingly expensive, but are also easy to counterfeit, misattribute or overvalue.

As far as dating anything based on the method of manufacture or processing, I'd caution you to not make any assumptions. Japanese do not tamper with a process in the name of efficiency, tradition will almost always win, especially with these sorts of items. Being hand sawn and chiseled is precisely why these are valued, and no one is going to quickly change that process in the name of selling more stones in a market that is steeped in tradition and reputation. I'm not at all implying that yours isn't old or valuable, just you would need a professional in the field to recognise that handwriting, the source of the stone itself and the quality of the sample to evaluate the age. For these 'traditional' stones, I doubt very much the tooling used to quarry them today is any different than it was 300 years ago, although I'll state again I'm not an expert in this field.

From what I understand, it changed in about the WW2 era. Possibly due to the war and the aftermath providing a lot of assistance and opportunity for upgrades to the equipment used in all trades. Even very old stones from that time used a sort of large circular saw to cut them to roughly rectangular shape. Before that the stones were sawed with a blade using reciprocal motion like an old hand wood saw might use. Before that, they were chiseled. That information is from some historical videos I've seen as well as firsthand information from a couple vendors who regularly travel to and deal with the sharpening stone miners and sellers in Japan. So far no one has been able to definitively tell me what my stone says. Possibly no one will. I purchased it directly from an eBay seller in Japan probably 10 years ago. Another clue to its age was the traditional wrapping that was on the stone, which is washi paper that is subsequently coated in cashew lacquer. It was pretty clearly VERY old. Also a real pain to remove...

I don't particularly care what it is worth. I plan on using it until I'm gone. Then wherever it goes, it goes. I will eventually probably either give it to my son or someone else if he has no interest. I have around 15 or 20 of these from various Japanese mines. I collect old antique sharpening stones, so I have quite a few.

Edit: here is a link to a video showing one of the old miners demonstrating the older reciprocal sawing method vs the more modern method. Relevant bit starts at ~4:55.

 

[Bakafish]

Another clue to its age was the traditional wrapping that was on the stone, which is washi paper that is subsequently coated in cashew lacquer. It was pretty clearly VERY old. Also a real pain to remove...

This to my mind would be a better indicator of the age, although we're talking about million year old stones here As I said, I'd be shocked if there are not still stones cut with a reciprocating saw today, for traditional or aesthetic reasons, and it took quite a while for post WW2 recovery to penetrate these sorts of industries.

They are certainly desirable items, just the knowledge to navigate and classify them seems like a lifetime endeavour. I use Shapton stones myself, I just couldn't deal with the deep dive I would need to do to try and accrue a natural set. But you should document your collection here in a thread and share what you know. Someone out there knows what stone that is, and someone else knows that person and will someday read this. They say the best way to solve a quandary on the internet is not to ask the question, but to give the wrong answer. I'm sure someone will correct my ignorance.

 

[eKretz]

This to my mind would be a better indicator of the age, although we're talking about million year old stones here As I said, I'd be shocked if there are not still stones cut with a reciprocating saw today, for traditional or aesthetic reasons, and it took quite a while for post WW2 recovery to penetrate these sorts of industries.

They are certainly desirable items, just the knowledge to navigate and classify them seems like a lifetime endeavour. I use Shapton stones myself, I just couldn't deal with the deep dive I would need to do to try and accrue a natural set. But you should document your collection here in a thread and share what you know. Someone out there knows what stone that is, and someone else knows that person and will someday read this. They say the best way to solve a quandary on the internet is not to ask the question, but to give the wrong answer. I'm sure someone will correct my ignorance.

Oh I have done that already. At places where it is more likely someone would know - straight razor shaving message boards - sharpening sections. There are all sorts of guys at those sites who are into Japanese stones. Nobody knows so far. What it might say is really more a curiosity to me at this point.

As far as the collection, it would be too much to go over. There are certainly well over a hundred stones. From Arkansas to Coticules to Thuringians to Silkstones to Japanese natural stones to little synthetic barber hones and old India stones from the turn of the century and on and on. Even some that I cut myself. I also have Naniwa, Suehiro and Shapton hones, as well as a handful each of DMT and Atoma diamond plates. Most of those were used to try out on razor edges and see which I liked best. I settled on Arkansas (black translucent - looks sort of light gray but passes light) and Japanese stones as my favorites.

 

[pat pounden]

Oh I have done that already. At places where it is more likely someone would know - straight razor shaving message boards - sharpening sections. There are all sorts of guys at those sites who are into Japanese stones. Nobody knows so far. What it might say is really more a curiosity to me at this point.

As far as the collection, it would be too much to go over. There are certainly well over a hundred stones. From Arkansas to Coticules to Thuringians to Silkstones to Japanese natural stones to little synthetic barber hones and old India stones from the turn of the century and on and on. Even some that I cut myself. I also have Naniwa, Suehiro and Shapton hones, as well as a handful each of DMT and Atoma diamond plates. Most of those were used to try out on razor edges and see which I liked best. I settled on Arkansas (black translucent - looks sort of light gray but passes light) and Japanese stones as my favorites.

funny ....given the avatar! (razor sharpening)

 

[eKretz]

funny ....given the avatar! (razor sharpening)

Yeah, used to shave a lot more. Nowadays I just use 'em for a trim. But I still enjoy razor and knife sharpening. Sort of a zen thing; it's relaxing.

 

[Bakafish]

I think we all face a situation where we already have a tool, but a great value presents itself and we end up with more of something than we could ever practically need. But between too good to be true bargains and the need to rescue neglected tools my hoard just keeps growing. This set of brand new and completely unblemished hardened Obishi Keiki straight edges had a $80 buy it now price, which was ridiculously cheap as the 300mm three sided edge sells for $1400, the 200mm is $600 and the little 80mm knife edge is $160.



Too hard to pass up. The little knife edge will likely be the most used of the bunch, I wrapped them in anti-rust paper and stacked them on the pile...

 

[just Dave]

With the Hydraulic vise: I have a few milling vises built in similar fashion and love them. Two made by Saunders in England, and the other has no name but I suspect it's an old Hilma or other German/Swiss. I've never had to take the screw mechanisms apart on them so I don't know how complicated they are, but the design makes for an incredibly smooth operation that puts a ton of force into the clamp with little effort.

Thanks for the thread. Its fun to see what's around "over there", more than what gets brought in for our market over here. I don't want to derail your thread with the politics of it all, but I've always admired how the Germans and Japanese went from the ashes of war to being THE world leaders in so many aspects of technology and manufacturing.

We had a Palmgren as I recall, hydraulic vise at a shop years back. It had the pressure indicator lines just like the pic. I had to take it apart once after a man through a part out of a mill. I remember several Belleville washers stacked up in it and no apparent issue. I don’t recall much of hydraulic system to it. I continued to use it for some years without issue?

 

[michiganbuck]

OT ..I used to repair Hydraulic tool holders by adding another washer/spacer.
The company was sending them out and paying big bucks untill I started doing that.

 

[cyanidekid]

ok, ok, I was happy for you that you got these things at first, but now im starting to get pissed off...

no seriously, thanks for sharing pictures of them, and kanpai!!

 

[Bakafish]

ok, ok, I was happy for you that you got these things at first, but now im starting to get pissed off...

no seriously, thanks for sharing pictures of them, and kanpai!!

I've got a lot more, even though I've been making a real attempt to stop buying things (especially multiples.) In this thread I'm trying to show a variety of items and hopefully really unique or regional stuff. I think when the Japanese decide to do something well, they are as good as it gets. Maybe not the best, but close enough. For every gem I've picked up a handful nice items that are interesting, but don't quite deserve to be highlighted.

Shop tours and Monday Meatloaf are always interesting to me, a lot of my interests in this stuff was seeing something new and covetous that someone else had. My experience has been that once I learn about something I start seeing it everywhere

 

[Toolmaker51]

QT; ( I paid a little less than $200 including shipping and the wooden storage box, quite a fantastic deal as it is basically new. )
Can you buy outside of Japan?
From here it seems Japan is a sensible country, and Japan products are regarded as high quality.

No lie. I worked with an entire crew (about 100) of Japanese mechanics, millwrights, engineers and electricians at the worlds largest assembly plant, just outside of Reno NV. I went nuts over what they brought with them, right down to hand tools and measuring instruments. The manufacturers instill touches of usability which are outstanding. Everybody likes Mitutoyo etc; safe to say huge percentage of the other tools have just as high a regard
Examples off top of my head...........
Magnetic plumb bob that winds back into the case,
10" long flat based protractors with settable quadrant (like Johnson or Eclipse, but not square, much better needle movement), a smaller credit card sized protractor with same general features,
A scale, stainless steel like our 6" round ended pocket style, that end has a small bend to ease pick up. Still easy if that side is down.
Many of the mechanics carried a 'holster' of hex wrenches. Their 'long pattern' is about 15-20% longer, and the kit includes a perfect cheater for extra torque, OR working the long end down a hole. Either square or ball end sets, no-one twisted any off.
Ratchet sets, as fine and positive can be imagined. I prefer stippled over chrome polish, but the quality made that null.
I'm sure the OP can direct interested parties onto proper sites or brand names.

 

[Bakafish]

I've got a pretty decent collection of precision vices, but have been looking for one of the smaller ones as I still don't have any normal sized machines. This is a JAM DS-50 ($800 new), it is a diminutive 110mm's in length and able to grasp up to 50mm. 5 micron or less squareness and under 2 micons for parallel, it came with a nicely made block that screws to the bottom so it can be clamped in a secondary vice without distortion.



As you can see above, the unique aspect of this series is that it is made of their special hardened (HRC57) stainless steel. I have a large variety of rust inhibitors, some of which were quite difficult and expensive to obtain, and I live in constant fear of opening one of my storage boxes and finding a pile of rust where some former gem resided. So these stainless steel vices are really a comfort and I can leave them on my desk, near at hand without fear of them getting dreaded spots.

 

[Kingbob]

very cool thread, please keep it going

 

[M. Moore]

Fantastic! I have always been a fan of Japanese tools.
Great to see your collection. Please keep sharing.

 

[Bakafish]

Monotaro is one of my main internet supply shops, with an extensive selection, good searchable categorization and reasonably competitive prices. They print numerous volumes every year, broken into specialties like lab equipment, metrology or painting which can really be useful to me as Japanese terminology can make identifying fairly common things exceedingly hard if you don't know what they call it. Finding a suitable catalog and looking at the pictures can be a godsend, although I end up recycling a giant stack every year. But what they do that I find astonishing is they print a biweekly full color, glossy finished mini-catalog that is customized to me. It is a mix of items I recently purchased and algorithmically selected items related to my purchase history.


I understand conceptually how this can be possible, that the cost of modern printing equipment, computer generated layout and so forth could at scale make the cost of this both reasonable and justifiable, but my old brain still kind of short circuits when I see these. The first time I got one I was totally befuddled that they would have published a full quality catalog that miraculously contained a number of highly eclectic and specialized items that I had recently purchased from them, and it took me a few issues before I could finally accept that these were custom printed just for me.

I've been away from the US for a long time, and this amount of effort (and targeting a demographic that still uses paper) feels uniquely Japanese, but is there anyone over there doing something like this?

 

[eKretz]

Monotaro is one of my main internet supply shops, with an extensive selection, good searchable categorization and reasonably competitive prices. They print numerous volumes every year, broken into specialties like lab equipment, metrology or painting which can really be useful to me as Japanese terminology can make identifying fairly common things exceedingly hard if you don't know what they call it. Finding a suitable catalog and looking at the pictures can be a godsend, although I end up recycling a giant stack every year. But what they do that I find astonishing is they print a biweekly full color, glossy finished mini-catalog that is customized to me. It is a mix of items I recently purchased and algorithmically selected items related to my purchase history.

View attachment 386312
I understand conceptually how this can be possible, that the cost of modern printing equipment, computer generated layout and so forth could at scale make the cost of this both reasonable and justifiable, but my old brain still kind of short circuits when I see these. The first time I got one I was totally befuddled that they would have published a full quality catalog that miraculously contained a number of highly eclectic and specialized items that I had recently purchased from them, and it took me a few issues before I could finally accept that these were custom printed just for me.

I've been away from the US for a long time, and this amount of effort (and targeting a demographic that still uses paper) feels uniquely Japanese, but is there anyone over there doing something like this?

Not that I'm aware of. Pretty neat.

 

[just Dave]

Monotaro is one of my main internet supply shops, with an extensive selection, good searchable categorization and reasonably competitive prices. They print numerous volumes every year, broken into specialties like lab equipment, metrology or painting which can really be useful to me as Japanese terminology can make identifying fairly common things exceedingly hard if you don't know what they call it. Finding a suitable catalog and looking at the pictures can be a godsend, although I end up recycling a giant stack every year. But what they do that I find astonishing is they print a biweekly full color, glossy finished mini-catalog that is customized to me. It is a mix of items I recently purchased and algorithmically selected items related to my purchase history.

View attachment 386312
I understand conceptually how this can be possible, that the cost of modern printing equipment, computer generated layout and so forth could at scale make the cost of this both reasonable and justifiable, but my old brain still kind of short circuits when I see these. The first time I got one I was totally befuddled that they would have published a full quality catalog that miraculously contained a number of highly eclectic and specialized items that I had recently purchased from them, and it took me a few issues before I could finally accept that these were custom printed just for me.

I've been away from the US for a long time, and this amount of effort (and targeting a demographic that still uses paper) feels uniquely Japanese, but is there anyone over there doing something like this?

I get personally targeted adds every day, but not on paper, all digital .

 

[Bakafish]

As I've said before, I'm often curious how things find their way over here. I titled this thread, "Japanese Finds", I should have said Finds in Japan since I didn't want this to be exclusively Japanese made items. I bought a small bundle of what appeared to be watchmaker's lathe accessories. I was most interested in the chuck. which is a Japanese made Kobayashi Iron Works LC-050 which when new, was worth many times more than the cost of the bundle. But it also included an undescribed live center that turned out to be a Gepy type-P unit along with an unmarked large diamond plated cone in a morse taper that I think is used for regrinding a centering hole, although it may be intended as a high friction drive center.

Subsequently, I recognized via the photo another Gepy, a type-C live center with a hollow tip and a Bruckner Type-SH carbide tipped live center which both were listed for sale as unknown brand items at scrap prices.



Gepy makes very well regarded and high precision spindles and live centers, and I couldn't really find pricing on them as they don't seem to be very mainstream, but from my research are a top choice when you really want as little runout as possible. I couldn't find a dealer locally, so it's not clear how these got here or how much they costed, but Japanese watchmakers are pretty serious and would likely go to lengths to get the best they could find.

The little chuck is mounted on a nice morse taper adaptor, and has clever reversible jaws despite being a scroll type chuck. The numbers stamped on the jaws and body are used to ensure they are placed in the right slot depending on their orientation. The #1 & #3 jaws get swapped when you flip them, ensuring that they mesh correctly in both positions. Mitutoyo uses these chucks as an OEM fixture on some of their roundness/cylindricity/eccentricity measurement machines so I'm confident they are pretty accurate and well built.