Additive for machine tool foundations

[FJsapper]

Good morning, have some weird questions that are way outside of my wheelhouse and I was hoping to get a common sense check.

Is there any merit to use a process such as friction stir to produce machine tool foundations? For example, if you had a 30’x20’x10’ print envelope you could print a lathe bed with integral headstock, but would the engineering properties be suitable for finishing out into a machine? Granted, there is a business case that must be made here, but at the moment I’m just trying to figure out if such a thing makes any sense at all. My understanding is that there are limited (single digit? none?) domestic manufacturers and casting houses that are actively producing machines in this size range currently, am I mistaken?

 

[Toolmaker51]

For a woodlathe maybe, with embedded inline linear guides or cylindrical bed.
Seems it'll be a tough sell for a metal lathe having integral headstock. Not only from the initial manufacture aspect, but the alignment/ leveling, lubrication circuits, shift controls, thrust surfaces, enough beef to support (and dampen) workpiece rotating at xxxx RPM, electrical properties, hot chips melting in, adverse reactions to coolant........... Sure, could use bolt-on ways, if there is a precise surface they bed on, but solves none just mentioned.
Not dismissing potential of 3D/ additive fabrication, envisioning a engine or toolroom lathe. There's a reason the very best weigh several hundred pounds per added foot of bed length, multiple leveling pads and the spindle length/ bearing spread they do.

 

[DDoug]

Foundation or machine base ?

 

[FJsapper]

Foundation or machine base ?

Machine base.

There are some giant sized combo additive/subtractive machines on the horizon.

 

[DDoug]

Machine base.

There are some giant sized combo additive/subtractive machines on the horizon.

Yes, but your title said foundations, but your posting deals with machine bases.

Pick one.

 

[IceCzar]

The concrete lathe: World War I technology meets 21st-Century design

In WWII, Lucien Yeomans patented an idea for cheap lathes made from concrete, pre-fab metal and jigs to place the parts. Now the design is open source.

www.engineeringforchange.org

Epoxy granite - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

not as familiar with other makes but Mikron ( +GF+ ) https://www.gfms.com/com/en.html
makes extensive use of Polymer Granite bases columns and beds

print the mold, fill and leave as an integral component

 

[rogue_machine]

FJ, I assume you are watching the developments by MELD.

It's tough to beat a cast iron (Or granite epoxy) machine tool, as far as the rigidity, dampening properties, and thermal stability.

I'm not really sold on the combo machine solution either.

With that said, I really do think both AFSD and WAAM have very practical, tangible applications. AFSD has been approve to replace forged titanium components, and WAAM has great promise for Invar tooling in the composite industry. At least for medium and large parts, these both will aid in reducing lead time and cost.

 

[FJsapper]

Yes, but your title said foundations, but your posting deals with machine bases.

Pick one.

That’s fair, I believed this term applied to the metal frame of a machine tool, this is what I am referring to.

 

[FJsapper]

FJ, I assume you are watching the developments by MELD.

It's tough to beat a cast iron (Or granite epoxy) machine tool, as far as the rigidity, dampening properties, and thermal stability.

I'm not really sold on the combo machine solution either.

With that said, I really do think both AFSD and WAAM have very practical, tangible applications. AFSD has been approve to replace forged titanium components, and WAAM has great promise for Invar tooling in the composite industry. At least for medium and large parts, these both will aid in reducing lead time and cost.

Sir, yes, this is what prompted the question. The lead time aspect is the main concern, especially when it comes to potential industrial ramp up. I wonder if there is a significant learning curve advantage to additive for this application vs legacy casting which at a certain size range needs some real expertise, expertise which is short in supply these days.

 

[rogue_machine]

FJ, How did you stumble upon MELD? What made you interested in it?

 

[FJsapper]

FJ, How did you stumble upon MELD? What made you interested in it?

Just trying to inform some future planning for my day job. Supply chain risk management is a hot topic, the domestic machine tool industry is a critical component of that.

 

[rogue_machine]

FJ, message me and let's continue this discussion and thoughts. I'm building out a business plan at the moment for both WAAM and MELD as solutions to reduce lead time for forgings, castings, etc, aid in the labor shortage, and cut material costs.

 

[Comatose]

Let's see, MELD suggests 10.7lb/hr for steel, a typical 10" cnc lathe casting weighs 10,000lb. Ballpark the raw material for the MELD process at $1.50 per pound (fancy 3d print materials are always more expensive).

On the other side, a typical 10" CNC lathe retails for about $100,000 (no milling, no subspindle) and probably costs $60,000 to make. The electronics, rails, motors, screws and whatnot are gonna be something like $30,000 of that. So that leaves $30,000 for assembly labor and the mechanical bits.

Let's say the labor is $5000, just to have a number.

That leaves AT MOST $25,000 for the casting/3d printed parts, assuming no machining is required for the casting. $10,000lb at $1.50 per pound is $15,000 of that. So that leaves $10,000 for the printing process. It's 934 hours of printing at 10.7lb/hr.

So the 3d printer would have to bill out around $10/hr, including the cost of the electricity to run it and the operator running it.

That's somewhere between "Ain't no way in hell" and "HA HA HA HA get a load of this joker."

Metal 3d printing is useful for structures that need to be as light as possible, or hollow, or having internal geometry. Metalworking machines benefit pretty directly from being heavy.

So I guess I would say "good luck, and I hope my tax dollars aren't paying for this"

 

[FJsapper]

Let's see, MELD suggests 10.7lb/hr for steel, a typical 10" cnc lathe casting weighs 10,000lb. Ballpark the raw material for the MELD process at $1.50 per pound (fancy 3d print materials are always more expensive).

On the other side, a typical 10" CNC lathe retails for about $100,000 (no milling, no subspindle) and probably costs $60,000 to make. The electronics, rails, motors, screws and whatnot are gonna be something like $30,000 of that. So that leaves $30,000 for assembly labor and the mechanical bits.

Let's say the labor is $5000, just to have a number.

That leaves AT MOST $25,000 for the casting/3d printed parts, assuming no machining is required for the casting. $10,000lb at $1.50 per pound is $15,000 of that. So that leaves $10,000 for the printing process. It's 934 hours of printing at 10.7lb/hr.

So the 3d printer would have to bill out around $10/hr, including the cost of the electricity to run it and the operator running it.

That's somewhere between "Ain't no way in hell" and "HA HA HA HA get a load of this joker."

Metal 3d printing is useful for structures that need to be as light as possible, or hollow, or having internal geometry. Metalworking machines benefit pretty directly from being heavy.

So I guess I would say "good luck, and I hope my tax dollars aren't paying for this"

The old saying “just because you can, doesn’t mean you should” comes to mind. Thanks for the feedback, all very valid points and the kind of insight I was looking for.

 

[john.k]

The beauty of cast iron is you can cast a giant object in no more complex facility than a hole in the ground ....You might have to hire some of the Pakistani U Tubers to teach you the skills needed......once commonplace,now forgotten.

 

[Strostkovy]

I would suspect brazing 3d printed parts would work fine, and the actual loading on the huge chunks of iron isn't that high when used strictly for rigidity.

You could print a shell and cast in granite epoxy.

For production machinery I don't think this would make sense, but for custom machinery I think it could.