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OT: 500 megawatt compressed air power storage

A lot of the green tinged are very suspicious of oil producers getting climate change money to pump CO2 down old oil wells ,as a slightly disguised method of recovering uneconomic oil from the wells................also very much suspicion of the "carbon credits " trading scheme ,with the whole industry shown to be the preserve of con men,tricksters ,and frauds......and the big players turning a blind eye ,provided credits are backed by such nonsense as 'third party audits " done without setting foot outside Wall Street offices.
 
Obviously compressed air storage has a limited utility, as does pumped hydro, both requiring specific conditions and space. Battery storage[being done now on utility scale] is much easier to collocate with generation

Well, there is a lot more to it. The two important use cases are the daily cycling like a peaker and long-term storage, possibly cross-seasonal.

So for daily cycling A-CAES can work great since the thermal energy captured won't be lost in the matter of hours, and will be recycled. Pumped hydro will do the same. Batteries work even better for this use case because DC-AC conversion doesn't require moving parts, and grid synchronization is instantaneous. Battery-based solution can also scale the capacity and generation independently. On the other hand both air and water rely on mechanical generators, which can't instantly synchronize to the grid (not without an extra AC-DC-AC stage), and also aren't as quick to respond to the demand. Scaling generation or capacity for hydro and air can be difficult or impossible. Finally batteries do take space, and are still expensive. Depending on the site both pumped hydro and compressed air may be significantly scalable for capacity with little investment or changes to the facility.

Now with long-term it gets interesting. All 3 types can store energy for months at a time, but only pumped hydro and compressed air may theoretically produce for months at a time. Self-discharge in batteries is not a concern, but we simply can't build them big enough to have enough capacity to run at grid-scale for a long time. But you may be able to find a suitable site for either pumped hydro or compressed air to do so. Now hydro doesn't run out of water if it's sitting for months, especially if measures are taken to control evaporation. On the compressed air side though we lose the thermal energy, and so in a long-term use case efficiency drops significantly.

Final thought... energy efficiency isn't really a limiting factor. Cost per Wh is. Just like with the solar panels today, even at some 20% efficiency their utility is great and cost per Wh is quite low. If that can be achieved with compressed air, that is all we will need to make it work.
 
....Self-discharge in batteries is not a concern, but we simply can't build them big enough to have enough capacity to run at grid-scale for a long time.
Have to agree with everything you write, except for that, because........
...Cost per Wh is. Just like with the solar panels today, even at some 20% efficiency their utility is great and cost per Wh is quite low. If that can be achieved with compressed air, that is all we will need to make it work.

It's a cost thing. We can, but it's not worth it to the utilities/us.....yet.
 
Have to agree with everything you write, except for that, because........


It's a cost thing. We can, but it's not worth it to the utilities/us.....yet.

Self-discharge for Lithium Ion is typically cited at 1.5-2% per month. Is that a huge deal if they were sitting say for 3 months before powering stuff on ?
 
Self-discharge for Lithium Ion is typically cited at 1.5-2% per month. Is that a huge deal if they were sitting say for 3 months before powering stuff on ?

Bigger deal is the life cycle of the batteries themselves. They last maybe 20 years if you're optimistic, right? Pumped hydro has some antique installations still in operation today. The oldest operational pumped storage facility, in Switzerland, was built in 1907, upgraded to reversible turbines in 1930, and ran that way until the 90s. The new turbines are expected to last into the 2050s or later. Ludington was built in the late 60s and opened in 1973. Turbines were updated starting in 2013, and five of six have been replaced so far. Bath county in Virginia built in the 80s and upgraded 30 years later. That's on average at least double the lifecycle compared to 15-20 years expected from battery packs.

"If the dollar isn't one of your units, you haven't done an engineering calculation."
- I can't remember


The Ludington facility cost $317M in 1973, and the turbine upgrades took another $800M in 2013. That's a total of $3.1B in 2023 dollars of construction cost for 50 years of operation, and probably another 30. For an equivalent amount of batteries, we are looking at $10B every 15-20 years, which would total $40-50B for the same time span. Ouch. Maybe the price will go down for each battery in the future if we are good about recycling, as long as demand isn't scaling to match which is certainly no guarantee if we are pushing hard for an all-electric world. Once we scale up capacity enough, all the funds to build stuff will just be replacing old stuff.
 
Bigger deal is the life cycle of the batteries themselves. They last maybe 20 years if you're optimistic, right? Pumped hydro has some antique installations still in operation today. The oldest operational pumped storage facility, in Switzerland, was built in 1907, upgraded to reversible turbines in 1930, and ran that way until the 90s. The new turbines are expected to last into the 2050s or later. Ludington was built in the late 60s and opened in 1973. Turbines were updated starting in 2013, and five of six have been replaced so far. Bath county in Virginia built in the 80s and upgraded 30 years later. That's on average at least double the lifecycle compared to 15-20 years expected from battery packs.

"If the dollar isn't one of your units, you haven't done an engineering calculation."
- I can't remember


The Ludington facility cost $317M in 1973, and the turbine upgrades took another $800M in 2013. That's a total of $3.1B in 2023 dollars of construction cost for 50 years of operation, and probably another 30. For an equivalent amount of batteries, we are looking at $10B every 15-20 years, which would total $40-50B for the same time span. Ouch. Maybe the price will go down for each battery in the future if we are good about recycling, as long as demand isn't scaling to match which is certainly no guarantee if we are pushing hard for an all-electric world. Once we scale up capacity enough, all the funds to build stuff will just be replacing old stuff.

Longevity of batteries is a good topic. For Lithium Ion it very much depends on the chemistry. Some of the best numbers right now are for LFP cells - up to 10,000 cycles. Typically the metric is "to 80% of original capacity" - so after 10,000 cycles they aren't dead, just don't have as much capacity. Large battery remanufacturing at scale can be a thing, so decomissioned cells can be rebuilt and put back into service with little material loss. The other nice thing about it is that cells can be rotated gradually without having to bring the entire facility down for maintenance. LFP cells are also non-toxic, in case anyone is concerned.
 
I prob didn't make myself clear. Wouldn't be the first time.

Utility scale battery storage can be built, as large as wanted, it's just a matter of needing it enough to justify the expense.

There's a utility scale Tesla storage facility in Australia. A few years ago, built very quickly, don't know how it's doing.

Flooded lead acid storage is still the least expensive per capacity. And very recyclable. Lead acid batteries have somewhere around a 97% recycling rate, including the polypropylene cases. Plenty of battery companies would be willing to custom engineer huge cells.

I would expect utility size storage to be used almost daily. Self discharge is quite a bit less than line loss...
 
I prob didn't make myself clear. Wouldn't be the first time.

Utility scale battery storage can be built, as large as wanted, it's just a matter of needing it enough to justify the expense.

Yes, but only for specific use cases. We can build utility-scale batteries for hourly or daily cycling, we can also build them for emergencies. We can't practically build them for running their respective sections of the grid for weeks or months.

Best way to think about it is at the scale of a typical household. Average daily household energy use in the US is 29kWh. That means a battery of an average EV today (60kWh) can run such household for 2 straight days. Now let's say you wanted to run that household for 3 months - that is 45 such batteries. You can imagine the cost and size on your own, but I'll just say that's about 60,000lb of battery weight at the energy density of the automotive batteries. Below I will comment on the Lead-Acid option.

There's a utility scale Tesla storage facility in Australia. A few years ago, built very quickly, don't know how it's doing.

Yes, there are actually many utility-scale batteries. What you seem to be missing is that there is a loose relationship between battery capacity and generation capacity. Basically the measures of how much energy you store, and how quickly can you discharge it. In the household example above I said you need a 2700kWh battery to run a house for 3 months, but it doesn't mean that you need a 2700kW inverter to do so - average load likely doesn't exceed 50A, or roughly 6kW (120VAC). Same thing with that Tesla facility in Australia - it is rated to generate up to X many megawatts for Y many hours, but if it runs at full capacity it won't be running for very long before it gets empty. Likely they have a 1:1 or close to that relationship between capacity and generation. You can double the battery, and you will run for 2 hours at full power instead of 1 hour... long way (and an unrealistic one) to go towards running it at "grid scale" for weeks or months though.

Flooded lead acid storage is still the least expensive per capacity. And very recyclable. Lead acid batteries have somewhere around a 97% recycling rate, including the polypropylene cases. Plenty of battery companies would be willing to custom engineer huge cells.

Flooded lead-acid is least expensive per capacity upfront... and it pretty quickly becomes significantly more expensive than Lithium options if you need to use it for daily cycling as opposed to emergency backup. You basically can expect just 200-250 cycles out of those batteries before you need to scrap them. That's at least 40 times shorter life expectancy than LFP cells (like I said, they aren't dead after 10k cycles either). Add the logistical complications due to the fact Lead-Acid is significantly less energy dense, and you end up with FLA's being 100x or more expensive.

I would expect utility size storage to be used almost daily. Self discharge is quite a bit less than line loss...

Utility scale as discussed earlier comprises of 3 separate problems. One is peaking - easiest problem to solve, and we already have the solutions. Two is compensation for intermittent generation sources such as wind. And three is to compensate for seasonal changes in generation, such as reduced or no solar generation in the Winter time for some regions.
 
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The Tesla storage in South Australia is a political battery ....the most usual kind in this country........anyhoo,for a while ,Musk was a sort of green hero ,and before Twitter ,the Musk name was a sine qua non for politicians posturing green creds AND system reliability......I might also add ,the cycle life of the Musk batteries is modified by the frequent fires ......in fact the Musk batteries are set out in a grid that is sufficiently spaced to avoid fire from one incinerating its neighbours.......PPS.....the first actual real world test of the Musk device ...IT FAILED....!
 
Battery storage[being done now on utility scale] is much easier to collocate with generation

And yet, worldwide adaptation of pumped hydro is 96% vs. all else.

I would be willing to bet today in 2023 that unless some magical, not yet even imagined battery tech comes along, batteries as we think and know of today WILL NOT be the method of storage 50 years from now!

One interesting proposal I saw elsewhere was to have windmills directly compress storage air, eliminating the need to generate electricity twice. Such a system would be used to level out the variable output of windmills.

That is an interesting concept, specially if it can be made a hybrid.
Generate electricity directly when needed, compress air when not, real time balance between the two to throttle electric output.
 
In the 80s a South African goldmine blanked off a disused haulage way, with 2 nozzles. At night they pumped it up when electricity was cheap and tben used it during the day to power rockdrills. The power company put a stop to it because of the loss of revenue.

Sulzer(the company I worked for) also used the compressor heat exchangers to heat water to be stored in insulated tanks for the miners to shower in. Paid for itself in 3 months.
 
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The Tesla storage in South Australia is a political battery ....the most usual kind in this country........anyhoo,for a while ,Musk was a sort of green hero ,and before Twitter ,the Musk name was a sine qua non for politicians posturing green creds AND system reliability......I might also add ,the cycle life of the Musk batteries is modified by the frequent fires ......in fact the Musk batteries are set out in a grid that is sufficiently spaced to avoid fire from one incinerating its neighbours.......PPS.....the first actual real world test of the Musk device ...IT FAILED....!
I remember reading here that about one big battery burned each month. these batteries are about the size of a car and weigh several tons. Thought was the energy saved was less then then energy used to make replacement batteries needed because of fires.
Bill D
 
The batteries are equated to political arses saved ........Mitsubishi produce a non burning large battery for grid use,however it doesnt have the Saint Musk provenance among millenials ,so its political value is zero.
 
Yes, but only for specific use cases. We can build utility-scale batteries for hourly or daily cycling, we can also build them for emergencies. We can't practically build them for running their respective sections of the grid for weeks or months.
Of course not. Daily cycling would be the most obvious use.
Best way to think about it is at the scale of a typical household. Average daily household energy use in the US is 29kWh. That means a battery of an average EV today (60kWh) can run such household for 2 straight days. Now let's say you wanted to run that household for 3 months - that is 45 such batteries.
With all due respect, that is a very unlikely situation. 3 months? Having installed quite a few offgrid systems, no owner has even posited such a thing and I can't imagine any economic justification for doing so.
... In the household example above I said you need a 2700kWh battery to run a house for 3 months, but it doesn't mean that you need a 2700kW inverter to do so - average load likely doesn't exceed 50A, or roughly 6kW (120VAC).
Agreed, also don't forget that it's not a real world situation.

Same thing with that Tesla facility in Australia - it is rated to generate up to X many megawatts for Y many hours, but if it runs at full capacity it won't be running for very long before it gets empty. Likely they have a 1:1 or close to that relationship between capacity and generation. You can double the battery, and you will run for 2 hours at full power instead of 1 hour... long way (and an unrealistic one) to go towards running it at "grid scale" for weeks or months though.
Yes, daily cycling, or nearly so is the best economic use of a battery bank.
.....Flooded lead-acid is least expensive per capacity upfront... and it pretty quickly becomes significantly more expensive than Lithium options if you need to use it for daily cycling as opposed to emergency backup. You basically can expect just 200-250 cycles out of those batteries before you need to scrap them.
Trojan FLA batteries made for RE use show a cycle life of 2000 if discharged to 50% capacity. Typical life is about 10 years if cared for, less if not.
That's at least 40 times shorter life expectancy than LFP cells (like I said, they aren't dead after 10k cycles either). Add the logistical complications due to the fact Lead-Acid is significantly less energy dense, and you end up with FLA's being 100x or more expensive.
Logistical complications? They need more room because of their lower density, but that's not a problem in stationary applications. Li-ion batteries are used in transportation because they're much lighter. And as John reminded us, there's that fire thing.

100x? Show me the math.
Utility scale as discussed earlier comprises of 3 separate problems. One is peaking - easiest problem to solve, and we already have the solutions.
The present solution is to buy peaking power, almost always at more than retail rate. Makes financial sense at the moment, but one can easily see why utility scale storage would be desirable.

Two is compensation for intermittent generation sources such as wind. And three is to compensate for seasonal changes in generation, such as reduced or no solar generation in the Winter time for some regions.

They're all intermittent. Wind and solar (output, that is) more so than baseline power sources such as nuclear, but less so than peaking sources. Pinning the responsibility for storage onto only a few sources limits the options. Looking at the magnitude of the peaks and valleys is informative, too.

Peak load for many utilities is usually more than 3x off-off-peak load. Penetration of the grid by wind and solar is usually much less than 10%. Peaking problems are obviously much larger than wind and solar.
 
My High School electronics teacher said the navy radio station on the California coast had a huge flywheel to store power. It might have been inside a vacuum tank?
I have read the old edison iron batteries are ideal for electric cars but they quit making them about ten years ago.
Bill D
 
I have read the old edison iron batteries are ideal for electric cars but they quit making them about ten years ago.
Bill D
ni/fe battery
Specific energy:19-25 Wh/kg
Energy density:30 Wh/l
Specific power:100 W/kg'

Lithium Ion
100-265 Wh/kg or 250-670 Wh/L). In addition, Li-ion battery cells can deliver up to 3.6 Volt

Yup Edison batteries are just another hidden tech, overlooked like the 100mpg carburetor
The best battery for electric cars....in 1899...last made in about 1975 unless some new companies have been doing it
 
And yet, worldwide adaptation of pumped hydro is 96% vs. all else.
Because it is old tech. But how well does it scale? You need a lot of big new lakes to depend on it. Not available everywhere, especially everywhere wind[flat] and solar[desert] are best
It is a good and useful technology, but building lots of new lakes up a hill is problematic
 
The Tesla storage in South Australia is a political battery ....the most usual kind in this country........anyhoo,for a while ,Musk was a sort of green hero ,and before Twitter ,the Musk name was a sine qua non for politicians posturing green creds AND system reliability......I might also add ,the cycle life of the Musk batteries is modified by the frequent fires ......in fact the Musk batteries are set out in a grid that is sufficiently spaced to avoid fire from one incinerating its neighbours.......PPS.....the first actual real world test of the Musk device ...IT FAILED....!
huh would seem to be news to them





They had a fire
They put it out

the project went on

poop occurs
 
My High School electronics teacher said the navy radio station on the California coast had a huge flywheel to store power. It might have been inside a vacuum tank?
I have read the old edison iron batteries are ideal for electric cars but they quit making them about ten years ago.
Bill D
In order to be efficient flywheels need to run in a vacuum. Otherwise the air friction would have a slowing effect.

The old iron batteries are very heavy per kWh, making them best suited for stationary applications. A huge advantage is that North America has large deposits of both iron and nickel, although a large lithium deposit has been recently found in Wyoming.
 
Of course not. Daily cycling would be the most obvious use.

With all due respect, that is a very unlikely situation. 3 months? Having installed quite a few offgrid systems, no owner has even posited such a thing and I can't imagine any economic justification for doing so.

That's an unlikely situation because it's not practically possible, it was meant to demonstrate what is being talked about. Both pumped hydro and compressed air can be built for significantly longer endurance than batteries because their capacity can be derived from geographical vastness.

Agreed, also don't forget that it's not a real world situation.


Yes, daily cycling, or nearly so is the best economic use of a battery bank.

Trojan FLA batteries made for RE use show a cycle life of 2000 if discharged to 50% capacity. Typical life is about 10 years if cared for, less if not.

I said 200-250 cycles because that's the life expectancy cited for full cycling of FLAs. Typical number cited for 50% cycling of FLAs is 500 cycles. I haven't heard of those supposedly increased cycle life Trojans and will check them out for curiosity sake. Still, why are you bringing up 50% cycling when comparing to Lithium which can be cycled significantly deeper and for many more cycles ?

Logistical complications? They need more room because of their lower density, but that's not a problem in stationary applications. Li-ion batteries are used in transportation because they're much lighter. And as John reminded us, there's that fire thing.

More room ? Try more weight. Fire thing ? For LFPs ? Hilarious. Ever heard of blown up FLAs though ?

100x? Show me the math.

I showed you some of the math. 40x longevity of the battery cells. The other part is logistics: for 20 years of LFP cells in service a typical FLA would have to be replaced
some 30 times. Did I say they're a bit on the heavy side ? And don't forget the hydrolysis.


Edit, found this:

They promise up to 1200 cycles at 50% discharge. So cycling them fully it will be below 600 cycles before they're dead.
 
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