Need help selecting a cutter grinder.

[Just a Sparky]

I'm looking for a solution that will allow me to re-sharpen endmills (teeth and flutes) and drill bits. The ability to handle HSS lathe tools in a square collet would be a nice bonus, but that's not something I can't already manage with my bench grinder on the infrequent basis that I need a special tool. I need something small and semi-portable (i.e. a benchtop machine) as I simply do not have the floor space to capitalize on the myriad full-sized T&C grinders floating around on Marketplace, etc. for cheap.

This is something for personal use, not for profit, so price is a point of concern. At the same time though, I understand that ponying up for something nicer than the bare minimum has benefits. (Obviously)

Right now I'm trying to figure out what all is out there for options that fit my needs and what the pros & cons are of each.

So far I've seen second-hand Cuttermaster units for $1-2k before freight including varying amounts of accessories and attachments, a Deckel 'S0' locally for around $500, and various import Deckel clones that come as complete kits advertised as having endmill sharpening capability hovering around the $700-1,400 range delivered.

- The Cuttermaster units (FCG-30s mostly) are attractive in that they appear to be a rigid, well-built solution that is ready to use with no screwing around. The downsides obviously being the price tag and the weight... both for freight and for having to engine-hoist it onto and off of my workbench + bolster said workbench. (250 lbs.)
- The local Deckel machine looks well-made, but from my limited research, the D0 does not come supplied with much in the way of endmill capabilities. Is that correct?
- And lastly, the import machines are... well, import machines. I don't think I need to go into great detail. The biggest concern I have with those is with complaints about them not forming very good geometry on drill bits. Kind of defeats the purpose of the machine.

Are there other options I haven't listed yet? Thoughts and input on the ones I have? What should I be looking/checking for on used T&C grinders, aside from the obvious?

 

[eKretz]

An SO can do the ends of endmills but not the flutes, as far as I'm aware. I believe those have no provision to move the tool fore and aft with respect to/along its rotational centerline.

A Cuttermaster would be good too, but there's a similar Darex with an air bearing spindle that I think may be what I would be going after if I were in your shoes. They generally go for around $1,000ish or less from what I've seen. I'd have a look at those too at least. They have a pretty small footprint, a bit bigger than a bench grinder on a stand. E-90 is the name I think.

 

[implmex]

Hi Just a Sparky:
You are asking for a pretty broad range of capability, and the consequence of that is you're describing a machine that can be set up for a bunch of quite different tasks.
That means a proper, full featured T&C grinder, and once you've come to that realization, you will quickly discover they don't come in a wide size range.

I knocked up against that reality decades ago and my personal solution was to build my own.
But I was working as a toolmaker at the time so I had access to all the goodies including a surface grinder, a cylindrical grinder a mill and a lathe.
So building it was mostly a matter of designing it and then taking the thousand hours it needed to roll my own.
Here it is:

Doing it this way is a totally impractical proposition unless you have access to what I had.
So you need to find the closest you can get that's already out there.

If you can live with full sized a Cincinatti, or a KO Lee, or an AR5 Elite or about a gazillion other brands out there, they will do all of what mine will do, but instead of being 300 pounds and fitting on a bench, they will weigh 1000 pounds and will be 3 phase floor machines.

There are a couple of European machines that have a better more suitable size than a Cincinatti #1 or #2.
The Deckel S11 is one and it's predecessor the Deckel S1 is another.
To see a good overview of the S1, look here:

These are nice grinders and you can do almost any task on one.
The S11's tend to be insanely priced, but I've seen S1's for cheap on Ebay.
Christen also makes a smaller footprint versatile grinder, but I cannot remember the model number.

If you cannot live with this, you have to accept more limitations in what you can grind.
A Cuttermaster, in my opinion, is completely unsuitable for what you want to do.
I ran one.
They are good flute grinders.
They are close to hopeless for anything else without a lot of screwing around.

The Deckel SO and its clones are also very limited in what you can grind...better than a Cuttermaster, but not nearly as good as an S1.
You can accessorize them to fake a fair bit, but here's the sad reality.
Cutter grinding is a precision process...most "fakes" do an abysmally bad job and the outcome is pretty much useless.
So if you want to do it at all, you kinda have to do it right with a decent machine in good shape.

If I were in your shoes, I'd try to find a reasonably priced proper machine, accept you're going to get a floor model, and find a proper space for it.
Failing that, I'd get a Deckel SO, accessorize it and live with its limitations.
I'd ditch the Cuttermaster idea, and with it, I'd ditch the idea of flute grinding.
Either toss your beat up endmills, or chop off the spoiled ends and regrind the end flutes.
If you have big ones to do, find yourself a cutter grinding house and pay them to re-flute them for you.

Either that, or get yourself a small surface grinder.
Accessorize that with an air spindle and a Harig Grind All and go to town with that.
Accept that every cutter you grind will be a project all on its own.

Cheers

Marcus
www.implant-mechanix.com
www.vancouverwireedm.com

 

[Clive603]

If you were in the UK a Clarkson with its appropriate accessories would be the thing to go for as it was designed to do precisely what you require. The drill sharpening attachment being an object lesson in making a job easy-peasy for standard points in diameters up to 11/16" inch. (I keep threatening to do a reverse engineer and make a larger capacity version to take up to the largest MT3 drills). Not quite so easy on split points et al. Boxford and others made similar but Clarkson's had the best sales force.

Can't believe there are no common machines of similar capacity in the USA. Switching to four facet drill points does ease the sharpening issue as a relatively simple jig enables the job to be done on a very basic T&C grinder, or one that has lost most of the accessories. Similarly the dual angle "teeter-totter" 5C collet devices do a decent job on the end of end mills. Flutes are the tricky bit. Theoretically 5C spindexer or the eqvilent siding spindle device can manage the job on simple T&C grinder but I have serious doubts as to whether the accuracy is adequate for high standard jobs. Ponying up for a proper air bearing sliding spindle is the only way too go for high end results.

Might be worth looking around for a Clarkson or Boxford manual online to see what the extra gubbins are like.

Clive

 

[Just a Sparky]

What are your thoughts on this guy in particular?

Universal End Mill Cutter Drill Bit Grinder Sharpener

www.shars.com

It's an import Deckel clone, but it's a Shars import. Their stuff is usually known for being slightly better than the usual eBay/Alibaba Saturday night specials. Some of the known issues with it seem to be a lack provisions for setting accurate radii for radiused 'D'-bit grinding operations, as well as the need to build a special (but quite simple) tool for removing the wheel arbors from the spindle. The former doesn't really affect me, for as I stated in my OP, 'D' bit and shaper/lathe tool grinding would merely be a bonus for me and I don't find myself needing to grind precise radii into said tools very often; Square profiles (shear, grooving, trepanning, slotting, etc.) cover most of my specialty needs. Everything else is available cheaply in the form of a replaceable insert.

Other complaints I've seen include the need to drop brass dogs or lead BBs beneath some of the friction screws to help them bite (easy), the use of O-rings as seals along the main axis rather than knife-edge seals (just wipe down the ways and flush out the carriage frequently like one normally does with a soft-bed lathe), some 5C collet compatibility issues (honestly not the end of the world), some confusion revolving around the proper use, application and efficacy of the included drill bit sharpening fixture and the lack of an air bearing on the flute grinding attachment.

The latter two complaints are my biggest points of concern. The lack of an air bearing spindle could foreseeably be remedied with a little bit of home engineering. Replacement flute grinding attachments to experiment with are available for relatively cheap ($110). The only thing I'm not sure about is the drill sharpening fixture.

Thoughts/input on this particular option? Bear in mind that I'm not after toolroom precision here - if I can indefinitely renew drill bits and endmills "good enough" for use as reliable hoggers/roughers then that's good enough for me. If I need to buy one or two super-precision finishers reserved for that purpose then that's okay. Rather, it is the necessity of frequently replacing general-purpose "workhorses" when they get dull or nicked from operator error that eats a hole in my wallet, halts my projects while I wait for replacements and saps a whole lot of fun out of the hobby for me.

 

[JBTR]

I think this is the Shars or a similar one

Video from Robin Renzetti

 

[implmex]

Hi again Just a Sparky:
You wrote:
"Bear in mind that I'm not after toolroom precision here - if I can indefinitely renew drill bits and endmills "good enough" for use as solid hoggers/roughers then that's good enough for me"
Sadly there ain't no free lunch here...if you want to grind a cutter that will cut, your grinding setup needs to be pretty good.
Grinding cutters is a bit like using a parachute...either you land or you splat...there ain't no "in between".

Before I hear howls of outrage, bear in mind there are a few things you must get right in order to get an endmill to cut decently.
#1 is that you MUST have primary relief on every flute and on every point along each flute.
If you do not have that, the cutter will not cut.
Not that it won't cut well...it won't cut at all.
#2 is that you must achieve decent concentricity between flutes if you want more than one flute taking the load.

In descending order after that:

3) Cylindricity is good
4) end flute co-planarity is good
5) Secondary relief is good
6) end flute gashing is good
7) end flute dishing is good
8) center cutting relief is good

These are all achievable in a routine manner with a tool and cutter grinder in good nick.

That Shars is a D bit grinder like a Deckel SO but not as well built
It can approximate all of the necessary motions to kind of sharpen an endmill but certainly not well or easily.
The flute grinding spindle needs to be very smooth and very rigid if you want to follow a flute without it humping.
The smoothness of motion translates to the smoothness of the cutting edge, and even a slight imperfection in your motion makes a gouge in the edge.
It's hard enough to get the motion right on a proper machine, never mind that Shars abortion.

I have a Deckel SO...I wouldn't dream of trying to grind endmill flutes on it...even the Deckel is not nearly rigid enough to do a decent job.
So I have a KO Lee air spindle I can set up on my surface grinder and at least get a good outcome consistently.
Even with that rig, it's not as easy as it looks to meet all the criteria above, and that KO Lee rig is very stout and very rigid by comparison to that "thing" that hangs off the Shars.

The abysmal way the end flutes were gnawed in that video is only cringeworthy...you will have a hard time convincing me they will cut well the way they were done.
This is not entirely the fault of the Shars...it is simply not capable of the motions needed for flute gashing, and without that clearance, you cannot plunge with the cutter anymore, and the chips even from side milling tend to pile up on the end of the tool, especially if there is no dish or the dish isn't carried right to center.
You also cannot get positive rake on the end cutting edges all the way across the flute to center.
What happens when you try to side mill with an improperly cleared or dished cutter, is that the finish left by the end of the cutter is all ratty.
This is because there is contact with areas of the end flutes other than their extreme tips, so those areas leave scarf marks and the whole cut looks like a pig's breakfast.

So yeah, it LOOKS like it will work, but the devil is in the details, and I contend it won't.
I say this with almost 50 years of experience as a toolmaker, running a bazillion varieties of grinders, so I've fucked up my share of endmills learning this.

Cheers

Marcus
www.implant-mechanix.com
www.vancouverwireedm.com

 

[Clive603]

Bottom line is the Deckel from which that Shars offering was cloned was designed (in the 1930's?) as an engraving cutter sharpener for use in old school manual workshops by skilled people. Its very, very good at that.

Later Deckel developments let it do lathe tools, up to a point, putting a radius on the tip is tricky, but most of the other add ons shipped with import machines seem to have been inspired by a close study of Home Shop magazines. Nothing totally objectively wrong with that approach but the two fundamental issues are :-

1) stretching the machine in a manner it was not intrinsically designed for which compromises stiffness and easy set-up.
2) the various accessories have to be made to work by skilled, sympathetic and practiced users.

For someone who only intends to use it occasionally the practice bit is the big hurdle. When you have to try a number of things to get a satisfactory result it's hard to remember exactly what worked 3 months ago. If you have no skilled background in tool grinding its easy to fall into a poor technique made to work by pure determination.

For the occasional user something that has a simple, robust, set-up procedure and "just works" is best.

Following on from what Marcus posted whilst I was typing possibly the worst thing about this sort of "inadequate but can be made to work" device is the ease with which it conditions the user to accepting poor results. Fighting a not quite sharp cutter is vast waste of time and temper.

An example.

For many years I used one of those swing across the wheel drill sharpeners and, by dint of effort got, I thought, pretty good at it. Had to accept that it took about 3 to get my eye back in so drill sharpening was always a "when I've got a bunch" job. Folk I occasionally sharpened drills for seemed pleased with the results so I figured Clive was doing pretty well.

Um. Nope.

Got the pukka attachment for the Clarkson. Took 5 minutes to fit and a further 5 to figure it all out and discover what sharp drill really means. That attachment is the baseline load. Takes less than a minute extra between drill box and chuck to touch up a not quite sharp looking drill and probably 2 minutes to go from broken & roughly re-shaped by hand to at least as good as new. Having really sharp drills instantly available all the time is real nice.

Thats the difference between pro and amateur and the sort of performance the occasional user needs.

Clive

 

[Just a Sparky]

So what I'm gathering from the conversation here is that the Cuttermaster will do endmills for me and I need a separate, purpose-built drill sharpener to do drill bits.

I understand what all of you are saying and where you are coming from with the recommendation to go for a full-sized machine. But at the same time, you guys also have to understand that when I say that I don't have space for a freestanding machine, it truly means that I unequivocally do not have space for a Cincinnati or KO Lee, et al, as much as I would love to have one.

Picture a two stall garage. Now add a car, a 36" blasting cabinet, 10 feet of 18" shelving, 16 feet of 36" pallet rack, a pair of 36" tool boxes, a 10 horse skid compressor, a 1/2 horse 32 gallon horizontal compressor, a 13x40" lathe, a 7" shaper, 3 ton arbor press, 12 ton hydraulic press, wall-mounted drill press, an 8x36" Millrite, stand vise, tool cart, motorcycle and a welder. Hopefully that helps to illustrate the point that I am not simply dragging my feet on a full-sized machine merely because it would be inconvenient or expensive. I am explicitly saying no because it is downright impossible. I have already cheated, milked and squeezed every last square foot of useful space out of my shop that I can manage. Hell, I X-rayed the Spancrete cieling and sunk a bunch of 1500lb anchors into it to hang overhead storage for that matter.

Having said all that, let's move forward with the understanding that a full size cutter grinder is a pipe dream.

What specifically is wrong with the Cuttermasters that makes them unsuitable for what I am looking to do, aside from requiring an add-on attachment for drill bits?

 

[Superbowl]

Are you looking to just collect machines? As a hobbyist how long will it take you to just break even on a $1,200 T&C cutter grinder vs. just buying end mills and drill bits if your time is worth zero? If your time has any value you will never recover the costs! That is why few pros bother resharpening anything except large drill bits on a simple bench grinder. 50 years ago most large shops had a sharpening department, now new prices are so low end mills and drill bits are considered disposable items.

 

[CarbideBob]

You asked for thoughts so here is mine.
I can make this machine work and make good cutting tools on it.
I also have a lot of experience under my belt on all sorts of machines.
To be real honest I think a Cincinnati monoset a piece of shit machine. Crap, not accurate and hard to use. I have owned four, long gone to the scarp yard.
I will never ever will use this machine again unless forced to.

Not sure why the dislike for the very old swing drill point method. Hundreds of millions of drills done this way in the past and now. Even the biggest dollar cnc will do this tip grind since it works.
Initial part load/orient is so critical to good and bad here so some art. On a cnc you use the touch probe to put you in the right spot.

Do I think it bad? .. no. Do I think it hard to learn and use? ...very much yes.
Will it make good parts.............. Operator skill and experience.
Will a person make good tools out of the chute without experience... Not gonna happen.

Non-production use in my garage up north I have to give it a okay as so way better than off hand grinding.
Work for the big automakers? No, no, no. Maybe for emergency touch up.

So you want to dive in this world of grinding round tools? It is a deep rabbit hole with twist and turns.
Let us just start with "trimming" the od . Now you change the rake up top (flute front) also so you change the chip formation, direction of the shear.

I have no problem with this choice of tools.
.. Thoughts from the sidelines...You did ask for thoughts.
Bob

 

[Just a Sparky]

Are you looking to just collect machines? As a hobbyist how long will it take you to just break even on a $1,200 T&C cutter grinder vs. just buying end mills and drill bits if your time is worth zero? If your time has any value you will never recover the costs! That is why few pros bother resharpening anything except large drill bits on a simple bench grinder. 50 years ago most large shops had a sharpening department, now new prices are so low end mills and drill bits are considered disposable items.

Let me answer your question by flipping it on end. I'm 27 years old. How many decades do you figure I have ahead of me to rack up that much or more in dulled, broken and dropped cutters before I get so old and crusty that I finally have to hang it up & sell my machines? If I hold out until 70, that means I've got four whole decades and change to pay off the initial purchase price of a T&C grinder, and every tool that I chip, burn up or wear out from that point on costs me absolutely nothing except a little bit of time. In fact, in the long run it will probably save time not having to sit around and wait for the mailman to come to my rescue whenever I chip or burn my last 'n'/16th endmill, etc. Nevermind if I'm in a hurry and end up having to go to McMaster for 2 day shipping.

Consider also that dull and rusty endmills are regularly sold in bulk lots for next to nothing, especially when someone dies. That's an awfully cheap way to stock up on a whole lot of perfectly good cores if you're someone like me who has not already paid hundreds upon hundreds to tool up with full sets of brand new stuff. Slightly rusty steel is just as good now as it was decades ago when new. Barring any bowing or pitting, all that is needed is a kiss with a wire wheel and a fresh set of edges to make it cut like new.

On another note, I'm still curious to hear why the Cuttermaster is getting hate. Looks like a very rigid, expensive machine - much more so than a Deckel clone. It very closely resembles the pattern of a full-sized T&C grinder, except with a smaller, more specialized work envelope. I'm thinking I could wait for a used hydraulic lift cart to pop up locally and have it live on top of that. Would allow me to raise it up for use and drop it back down for storage underneath the bottom shelf of my pallet rack.

 

[implmex]

Hi again Just a Sparky:
You asked"On another note, I'm still curious to hear why the Cuttermaster is getting hate."

The main reason is that the Cuttermaster cannot move the wheelhead up and down. (at least the one I am familiar with cannot)
You also rely on an air spindle to move the cutter back and forth past the wheel.

So you can grind flutes like you can with any other T&C grinder that has an air spindle.
Here's what you cannot do:
You cannot gash end flutes.
You cannot grind end flutes
You cannot grind a slitting saw.
You cannot point a drill
You cannot grind a lathe tool
You cannot grind a chip breaker.
You cannot grind a form cutter
You cannot grind a boring bar or a threading bar.
You cannot grind a taper cutter.
You cannot grind a D bit.
You cannot grind a reamer.
You cannot grind a tap.
You cannot surface grind.
You cannot cylindrical grind.
You cannot form dress a wheel.

Like with many other approaches, with enough bloody mindedness, you can press it into service to do many of these things, but for 5 grand it's a piss poor investment if you want versatile.

In one of my previous posts (post #3) I invoked the idea of getting a surface grinder and tricking it out for cutter grinding.
Here's a candidate machine for your needs and desires:

These baby Sanfords are about perfect for a small hobby shop where space is at a premium.
They are tiny...easy to rebuild, easy to take apart and lug into the shop, plug into the 110 volt wall socket, can be mounted on a bench with casters etc etc.
A strong guy can pick one up in his arms and carry it around.
Crucially, the wheelhead goes up and down and they have mag chucks.
You can buy or build a little air spindle for them and you can buy or build a spin fixture for them like a Harig.

Now you can do all those grinding tasks that are ridiculously difficult on the Cuttermaster, and you can do them for a a fraction of the price.
Having a mag chuck allows you to mount accessories with the flip of a lever, and having a fence on the side of the chuck means no need to indicate your accessories in...just push them against the fence and turn on the chuck.

So for what you want to do, you will get almost what I showed you in post #3.
Mine can tilt the wheel head and rotate it.
Mine can move the spindle in and out.
Mine can swivel the table.
Mine can disconnect the cross slide screw and mount a cam and follower for relief grinding.

In forty years:
I have tilted the wheelhead a few times.
I have never rotated the wheelhead.
I move the spindle in and out fairly frequently.
I have never swiveled the table.
I have never disconnected the cross slide screw.

So I spent a ton of effort to make features I thought I'd need but never ended up using.
If I'd known about those baby Sanfords back then, I could have saved myself all kinds of work and gotten almost what I have now.

I grind a LOT of weird tooling, and I do it all with that toy grinder.

So if you want to be able to grind almost any kind of tool, this is a good way to tackle it in a hobby environment.
Yeah, you'll never be competitive with a 5 axis CNC grinder, but for your purpose, who cares.

Cheers

Marcus
www.implant-mechanix.com
www.vancouverwireedm.com

 

[eKretz]

You asked for thoughts so here is mine.
I can make this machine work and make good cutting tools on it.
I also have a lot of experience under my belt on all sorts of machines.
To be real honest I think a Cincinnati monoset a piece of shit machine. Crap, not accurate and hard to use. I have owned four, long gone to the scarp yard.
I will never ever will use this machine again unless forced to.

Not sure why the dislike for the very old swing drill point method. Hundreds of millions of drills done this way in the past and now. Even the biggest dollar cnc will do this tip grind since it works.
Initial part load/orient is so critical to good and bad here so some art. On a cnc you use the touch probe to put you in the right spot.

Do I think it bad? .. no. Do I think it hard to learn and use? ...very much yes.
Will it make good parts.............. Operator skill and experience.
Will a person make good tools out of the chute without experience... Not gonna happen.

Non-production use in my garage up north I have to give it a okay as so way better than off hand grinding.
Work for the big automakers? No, no, no. Maybe for emergency touch up.

So you want to dive in this world of grinding round tools? It is a deep rabbit hole with twist and turns.
Let us just start with "trimming" the od . Now you change the rake up top (flute front) also so you change the chip formation, direction of the shear.

I have no problem with this choice of tools.
.. Thoughts from the sidelines...You did ask for thoughts.
Bob

I kind of like my Monoset. Would I rather have a fancy cnc grinder? Sure. But for my use it's pretty good. Mostly for simple one offs though. Wouldn't want to use it for high or even medium quantity.

I always hated the regrind endmills that shops would get that didn't reshape the chip gullet. Never cut the same. Still pretty good for odd sized counterboring though.

 

[implmex]

Hi eKretz:
I've always had dreams and fantasies of having a Monoset.
As you may remember, I was wild with envy when you got yours.

So is it as magnificent as I always pictured it would be??
Remember, there is a fantasy at stake here, so be kind

Cheers

Marcus
www.implant-mechanix.com
www.vancouverwireedm.com

 

[eKretz]

Hi eKretz:
I've always had dreams and fantasies of having a Monoset.
As you may remember, I was wild with envy when you got yours.

So is it as magnificent as I always pictured it would be??
Remember, there is a fantasy at stake here, so be kind

Cheers

Marcus
www.implant-mechanix.com
www.vancouverwireedm.com

Marcus, of course I remember, haha. I like it, anyway. I find it pretty easy to use but I sure would like to have readouts. Would make things go a lot quicker on some stuff. I've mostly done custom radius grinds so far, and it's awesome for that. I've reground some centers, experimented with gashing ball end mills and a few other things. A handful of custom radius citters for a friend's shop too. Right now I have the workhead drive off and am working on redesigning a new DC motor powered variable speed version.

Mine may get taken apart for a little rescraping this year, it could use a refresh. I seem to have a custom shop model, it has an extra slide built in for doing longer cutters or grinding features on the end of longer shafts. These machines were advertised for grinding small parts as well as cutters. Some joker painted over the contact surfaces of the extra dovetail slide so I need to deal with that mess.

It is a bit more tedious for flute grinding longer cutters since it's not a ball-way machine. I'd WAY rather have a #2 or something similar if I was doing a lot of those types of thing. Most of my stuff is little and the slides don't have to move a whole lot, so it's perfect for me.

I'd like to hear more about @CarbideBob's experiences so I can tell if it's just a personal preference thing, if he ran machines that weren't in good shape, or what?

 

[FJsapper]

Hi again Just a Sparky:
You asked"On another note, I'm still curious to hear why the Cuttermaster is getting hate."

The main reason is that the Cuttermaster cannot move the wheelhead up and down. (at least the one I am familiar with cannot)
You also rely on an air spindle to move the cutter back and forth past the wheel.

So you can grind flutes like you can with any other T&C grinder that has an air spindle.
Here's what you cannot do:
You cannot gash end flutes.
You cannot grind end flutes
You cannot grind a slitting saw.
You cannot point a drill
You cannot grind a lathe tool
You cannot grind a chip breaker.
You cannot grind a form cutter
You cannot grind a boring bar or a threading bar.
You cannot grind a taper cutter.
You cannot grind a D bit.
You cannot grind a reamer.
You cannot grind a tap.
You cannot surface grind.
You cannot cylindrical grind.
You cannot form dress a wheel.

Like with many other approaches, with enough bloody mindedness, you can press it into service to do many of these things, but for 5 grand it's a piss poor investment if you want versatile.

In one of my previous posts (post #3) I invoked the idea of getting a surface grinder and tricking it out for cutter grinding.
Here's a candidate machine for your needs and desires:

These baby Sanfords are about perfect for a small hobby shop where space is at a premium.
They are tiny...easy to rebuild, easy to take apart and lug into the shop, plug into the 110 volt wall socket, can be mounted on a bench with casters etc etc.
A strong guy can pick one up in his arms and carry it around.
Crucially, the wheelhead goes up and down and they have mag chucks.
You can buy or build a little air spindle for them and you can buy or build a spin fixture for them like a Harig.

Now you can do all those grinding tasks that are ridiculously difficult on the Cuttermaster, and you can do them for a a fraction of the price.
Having a mag chuck allows you to mount accessories with the flip of a lever, and having a fence on the side of the chuck means no need to indicate your accessories in...just push them against the fence and turn on the chuck.

So for what you want to do, you will get almost what I showed you in post #3.
Mine can tilt the wheel head and rotate it.
Mine can move the spindle in and out.
Mine can swivel the table.
Mine can disconnect the cross slide screw and mount a cam and follower for relief grinding.

In forty years:
I have tilted the wheelhead a few times.
I have never rotated the wheelhead.
I move the spindle in and out fairly frequently.
I have never swiveled the table.
I have never disconnected the cross slide screw.

So I spent a ton of effort to make features I thought I'd need but never ended up using.
If I'd known about those baby Sanfords back then, I could have saved myself all kinds of work and gotten almost what I have now.

I grind a LOT of weird tooling, and I do it all with that toy grinder.

So if you want to be able to grind almost any kind of tool, this is a good way to tackle it in a hobby environment.
Yeah, you'll never be competitive with a 5 axis CNC grinder, but for your purpose, who cares.

Cheers

Marcus
www.implant-mechanix.com
www.vancouverwireedm.com

What would the list of “tricked out” accessories be?

 

[Just a Sparky]

I like the idea of adapting a compact surface grinder. Would be nice to have one anyways for other things as mentioned, like cylindrical and... well, surface grinding. Truthfully my sticking point was that I had no idea any existed which are small enough (and self-contained enough) to be removed from their stand and placed on a different surface. My only exposure up until now has been the great big 36"+ clapped-out behemoths which tool and die shops out here regularly put out to pasture for dirt.

Do you have any recommendations for specific fixtures (makes/models) to adapt a surface grinder to the task of tool and cutter grinding? Features to look for aside from air bearings, indexing and collet compatibility? I might be able to elbow somebody to borrow the use of their surface grinder once in a while. Starting out with a couple of fixtures would allow me to get my proverbial feet wet on the (relatively) cheap and figure out what I do and don't like/want/need in a grinder when scouting for my own.

Something like a Harig Air-Flo maybe?

EDIT: Also seeing a Weldon model 'S' relief grinding fixture complete with cams and 'ER' style collets available... wondering if that would serve dual-purposes for both drill relief and endmill flute grinding. Can't find info on it... looks like it has a plain bearing spindle.

 

[Superbowl]

Let me answer your question by flipping it on end. I'm 27 years old. How many decades do you figure I have ahead of me to rack up that much or more in dulled, broken and dropped cutters before I get so old and crusty that I finally have to hang it up & sell my machines? If I hold out until 70, that means I've got four whole decades and change to pay off the initial purchase price of a T&C grinder, and every tool that I chip, burn up or wear out from that point on costs me absolutely nothing except a little bit of time. In fact, in the long run it will probably save time not having to sit around and wait for the mailman to come to my rescue whenever I chip or burn my last 'n'/16th endmill, etc. Nevermind if I'm in a hurry and end up having to go to McMaster for 2 day shipping.

Consider also that dull and rusty endmills are regularly sold in bulk lots for next to nothing, especially when someone dies. That's an awfully cheap way to stock up on a whole lot of perfectly good cores if you're someone like me who has not already paid hundreds upon hundreds to tool up with full sets of brand new stuff. Slightly rusty steel is just as good now as it was decades ago when new. Barring any bowing or pitting, all that is needed is a kiss with a wire wheel and a fresh set of edges to make it cut like new.

On another note, I'm still curious to hear why the Cuttermaster is getting hate. Looks like a very rigid, expensive machine - much more so than a Deckel clone. It very closely resembles the pattern of a full-sized T&C grinder, except with a smaller, more specialized work envelope. I'm thinking I could wait for a used hydraulic lift cart to pop up locally and have it live on top of that. Would allow me to raise it up for use and drop it back down for storage underneath the bottom shelf of my pallet rack.

You still did not answer my question--How long is it going to take you to break even after buying a $1,200 T&C grinder if your time is worth nothing? Quality end mills last a hobbyist a very long time. How much metal do you really think you are going to mill? For a hobbyist milling aluminum an end mill practically seems to last forever. Steel stock, depending on its hardness is a different story. Mild steel with proper lub, feeds and speeds lets a hobby guy use an end mill for a lot of work. Very hard steel not as much but again, how much milling are you actually going to do?

Its great to be young with lots of free time but over 40 years most of us end up with a wife, kids, a mortgage, and higher wages and those things make time to have a much greater value. Free time is better spent doing projects not sharpening end mills. 40 years is a very long time. Consider buying $200 in end mills for now and putting $1,000 in a stock index fund. In 40 years you will be glad you did. As Albert Einstein said, the most powerful force in the universe is compounding your money.

 

[implmex]

Good morning Superbowl:
You make a good and sensible point that is valid as soon as you start calculating costs and prioritizing them.

But Just a Sparky is pursuing a hobby.
That means he gets to enjoy himself without counting the cost in the same way you must when it's a business.
I have followed a very similar path he plans to, but my goal was to make what I cannot easily buy rather than hoping to save money.
Surprisingly, it has been profitable for me too, although I never really had any expectation it would be...at least not directly.

As I remarked in another thread, ( https://www.practicalmachinist.com/forum/threads/buy-vs-build-how-do-you-choose.410713/#post-4037210 ) I grew up in an era where every machinist worth his pay had to be able to grind cutters...there were no boxes of carbide inserts you could just swap out and if you needed a form cutter you had to find a way to make it.
There was no CNC to help you... everything had to be figured out in a completely different way compared to now.
If you needed a specific radius in the corner of a mold cavity, you had to modify an endmill to get that radius, so flute grinding was common for mold makers in the 1970's, and almost every toolroom had the capability

I have capitalized on that experience, and in my world, (prototyping and miniature machining) that skill has remained relevant, so I contend that if he learns it too, he will be able to do more with less investment, and pull feats of machining out of his hat that others can't easily duplicate.

So even if you cannot justify his proposal on purely economic terms, it's still a useful and worthwhile capability to pursue.
True, I don't flute grind endmills anymore either, and for exactly the same reason you articulated, but I do still grind a fair number of cutters and the skills I learned grinding endmills are not wasted.
Besides, it's kinda fun for me to make a cutter and have it work like I want it to.
It's also reassuring that I can keep my operation running without having to wait for cutters and plan the logistics of my jobs.
I hate logistics...I do it because I must, but whenever I can circumvent the need, I'm all in for the circumventing.

I don't know how much I've saved over the decades, but when I had a business partner, he used to routinely order 3 specials "just in case" and wait a week.
I often had my job done before he even got the cutters for his job, and I could make money on jobs he would lose his ass on.
He just closed his doors for good...couldn't make enough money to justify keeping it going.

He was trained a decade after I was, and he was (and remains) very very good at his trade, but I can still do shit he can't, and it's because I grew into the trade before he did, and learned self sufficiency he never had to.

Cheers

Marcus
www.implant-mechanix.com
www.vancouverwireedm.com