Could your shop make artillery rounds?

[mhajicek]

What is the percentage of the military budget actually used on weapons versus pay, benefits, pensions, disability etc? And China's?
My missus works with a therapist who was a therapist in the army. He gets a $4000 a month disability payment. For what? Tripping over a tent peg?
As for shooting from a mile away to keep our casualties down. Remember the gents who took out Osama were killed by some dozy(but lucky) Afghan.

Father-in-law was a cook, making scrambled eggs. Someone put him up for a purple heart. "For what?" they said. "Shell fragment in the eye."

 

[Superbowl]

It seems to me these shells should just be rough forged right in the steel mill while they are still hot and soft bar stock. Then the rough formed blanks can be trucked to shops with lathes that can do the final clean up to shape them to specs.

 

[Ries]

It seems to me these shells should just be rough forged right in the steel mill while they are still hot and soft bar stock. Then the rough formed blanks can be trucked to shops with lathes that can do the final clean up to shape them to specs.

Modern steel mills are continuous casting mills, which make endless ribbons of hot steel which is sheared into sheets.
Forging is a completely different technology, and while, a hundred years ago, some but not all mills also had forging plants, they dont today.
Johnstown PA had 2 or 3 forging facilities attached to its mile long mill, but that was before WW2.
Nucor, currently the largest steel maker in the USA, has 23 steel mills. They dont do any forging.

Deep draw forging like 155mm shells is a specialized forging process, and they use specific presses which are custom ordered, not off the shelf.
There are possibly a dozen big forging shops which might be able to do this, all booked up with commercial work. And it would probably take a couple of years to tool up to do this specific job.

This has always been done in government run plants in the US- there are not a bunch of commercial forging shops set up to do this.
And the heat treating is even more specialized- most heat treating shops dont have anywhere near the capacity, much less automated capacity, to make even a 1000 a week of these today.

I think the amazing versatility of modern CNC vmcs make people think they can do anything.
A VMC is a great swiss army knife for relatively small, relatively low production manufacturing, accurate, and able to change setups quickly.
but actual manufacturing, whether its engine blocks, artillery shells, or aluminum tesla chassis, can only be affordable, and able to make gigantic quantities, with specialized machines built to do one thing very well.
There is a reason why Tesla is buying more 9000 ton giga presses,rather than having some corner welding shop weld up aluminum chassis, then do all the machining on a gigantic HBM. Its faster, cheaper, more accurate, and able to use alloys and create shapes you just cant do on off the shelf machines.
Same thing with Artillery Shells- they know how to make em, they know what works, and they know that a bunch of Haas CNC mills is not the answer.

 

[ghost of christmas past]

Same thing with Artillery Shells- they know how to make em, they know what works, and they know that a bunch of Haas CNC mills is not the answer.

Bla bla bla, you dunno nuthin ! They can make em' easy on a modern accurate Haas cnc machine, I saw it on PBS !! Even the US army uses 'em, they're so accurate ! Just take a piece of steel and put it in the machine and bob's yer uncle, artillery !

Know-nothin', sheee-it

 

[Milling man]

Its faster, cheaper, more accurate, and able to use alloys and create shapes you just cant do on off the shelf machines.

You have described many technical difficulties in great detail, thank you.
But I think you're missing one simple fact. Even a hundred additional shells, crooked and with not very strong hulls, will save, say, one Ukrainian soldier. Most likely more than one.
This is not a question of profit, this is a question of increasing the release of shells + - at any price. The 9,000-ton presses are a wonderful thing, but there are no extra and free ones, but there are thousands of lathes ready to fulfill the order. And there is ordinary round steel. And there are also furnaces for heat treatment of at least one projectile, and, it seems to me, there are also thousands of them.

 

[Rob F.]

The main reason that the USA can not produce high volumes of these arty shells is that the USA has no real need for them. The USA is an air and naval power, not a land army power. Who is going to land on our shores that we would even need a large land army to defend against? Thats right if you said NOBODY. Even if some future rogue country did try how would they get here without being destroyed in transit? So no need for a large land army or any real stock of supplies for it. The euro countries like Russia, Germany, Etc are the opposite side of the coin, they are in real danger of being invaded from multiple sides and do need the large land armies, buy not so much need for air or naval power.


We here in the USA really need to learn how to mind our own business, and stay out of trying to influence the rest of the world using threats of financial ruin and/or the barrel of a gun.

 

[john.k]

When this conflict is resolved ,the need for millions of shells will be gone ,as artillery is obsolete technology...........I see an interesting thing on telly last week ,where lots of Ozzie made cardboard drones are being supplied to Ukraine .....claimed 1000 per week.........claimed that the price ranges from $1000 to $3000 each depending on the level of guidance ........the drones are supplied as a flatpack ,and are assembled onsite ,held together with rubber bands .........the guidance is entirely interference proof once launched ,and some fraction return so the power unit and electronics can be reused

 

[luke8888]

When this conflict is resolved ,the need for millions of shells will be gone ,as artillery is obsolete technology...........I see an interesting thing on telly last week ,where lots of Ozzie made cardboard drones are being supplied to Ukraine .....claimed 1000 per week.........claimed that the price ranges from $1000 to $3000 each depending on the level of guidance ........the drones are supplied as a flatpack ,and are assembled onsite ,held together with rubber bands .........the guidance is entirely interference proof once launched ,and some fraction return so the power unit and electronics can be reused

Resolved how? With destruction of Russia? That's very unlikely considering if the country fractures into endless civil war and a number of independence struggles (take Ingushetya for one) between nuclear armed adversaries it's not going to work for anyone around. So I'll tell you how this conflict will be resolved (two scenarios a win and a loss).

Let's start with our loss. In my opinion less likely so let's get it out of the way. If Ukraine fails to expell Russian troops from their lands and Germany with France manage to convince everyone they really want to get back to making money with Russia and the help to Ukraine stops they will have to accept "peace on Russian terms". Which will be very temporary. It will be a huge PR win for Putin in Russia (regardless the cost - human lives have always been very cheap in Russia). Just like Czechoslovakia was a great win for Hitler that pushed him to anshluss (take over) Austria. So a win in Ukraine will embolden Putin even more (his plans are described in great details and debated daily on Russian TV, where the goal is Russian world from Vladivostok to Lisbon). With new found "peace" Germany and France start again pumping money and tech to Russia and in 5 short years they rebuild their lost military capacity. At that time China has modernised a lot and is a proper threat to US so Russia attacks NATO countries in the Baltics thinking NATO will fracture due to German /French opposition to doing anything. Cue another war, much bigger one this time.

BTW, fun fact, did you know German military pilots have to hire themselves as air ambulance pilots not to loose their license because if not flying a certain number of helicopter hours per year? Yes, that's how short on equipment German army is. When Trump said to Germany "You spend nothing on military, because you have US protect you for free while you finance Russian military buildup with the money saved, and you use their cheap oil to dominate other EU countries economically. Shame on you" he was right(and I'm no Trump Fan in general.

So the only thing that stands between Russia and Western Europe is countries like Ukraine, Poland etc. Funny how similar this is to let's say 103 years ago almost exactly! Back then after Bolsheviks took care of their enemies at home they started preparing their takeover of Europe. (Russians have been at it for 400 years). Communism had lots of support amongst the workers in Germany and many surrounding countries. Had the red army reach Berlin in 1920 instead of getting their arses kicked under Warsaw "people's representatives" would have met them with flowers. Then they would cheerfully massacre all the "enemies of the proletaryat" together. Back then Poland(with lots of help from lots of other countries - Hungary gets a notable mention because they literally sent all of their own ammo to Poland helping immensely to win) has done it again (previously against Turks) and saved Europe. Now it is hopefully Ukraine that will repeat it(also with lots of material help).

Coming back to topic. The other scenario is a win. Ukraine expells Russians and they scream for peace talks(with help of their friends in France and Germany) the moment last Russian boot is thrown over the border on their side. Ukraine is forced to accept it's "win". Gets vague guarantees of security (like it did when it gave up nukes, still the only country in the world to give up nukes). Perhaps some pityful reparations, but France has already cautioned everyone against "humiliating" Russia in case of a win so that's unlikely. Best case scenario is, Ukraine joins NATO, but that's again very unlikely to happen on Germany's watch. Same with EU. The power in EU is held by the most populous countries. There is no way in hell the France-Germany partnership let's 40 million of extra citizens that could shift the power balance East... So, the war was won, right? Probably Russians have taken out Putin, but Putin was just a manifestation of people's will. Recently a poll was held in streets of Moscow. 80% of people was for attacking Poland next. The next guy may pretend to be better than Putin, but he knows what he is expected to do. He will start rebuilding the military potential.

So the war was won, but what will guarantee lasting peace? Those millions of artillery shells, 500 himars launchers Poland has ordered in US, thousands of new tanks etc. Only military power will guarantee lasting peace. There is this saying I heard. If you don't want to pay for your army you will pay for someone else's when they occupy you. That's the sad reality.

 

[Comatose]

Artillery isn't used because it is great. Artillery is used because it is cheap. Once you start a crash program to make artillery rounds in a much more expensive way, why not use the same money and production capability to make drones or guided rockets or javelin type missiles?

Sure, it's not as effective for reducing hostile apartment buildings and preschools to rubble, but we're not Russia.

 

[ghost of christmas past]

~~~~~~~~Mod Delete - Inappropriate Content ~~~~~~~~~

 

[john.k]

Waaal ...nuclear war sure makes some people nervous......seems Finland has joined NATO,and hardly a squeak from PooTin.......... fact is his three day conquest of Ukraine blew up in his face ,and he s now riding the tiger ...he cant get off ,it will eat him......so the war will grind on until he is dead ,whenever that may be.

 

[MichaelP]

What, so that Russia can bring in tactical nukes ? Are you crazy or just naive ? Ukraine is not going to join NATO. Period. Russia does not care if it destroys the world, it ain't gonna happen. And they have the capability.

Apparently, Putin's propaganda and imagemaking work. Meanwhile, for the last month, he is trying hard to take a Ukrainian village.

Continue being afraid of him: that's exactly what this midget is trying to achieve. If the West were just a little bit more decisive and wise, it would apply draconian sanctions to Russia or provide military help to Georgia in 2008. And than it'd be no 2014 Crimea annexation and the full-fledged war in Ukraine. But the history lessons are never learnt. The longer you play with the guys and show them how afraid you're, the higher the chance of them to become more and more aggressive. It's their nature. Putin, as a person, is an impotent and coward, and the current Russian military abilities are far weaker than they make you believe. They need an enemy like Erdogan: he shoots down a Russian war plane without any warning and gets a week-long embargo on Turkish tomatoes in retaliation. No nukes, not WW3. Erdogan knows exactly who he is dealing with. A quick punch in the face is the only way to deal with this kind of street criminals.

 

[SeymourDumore]

Pretty nice summation!
One small correction tho...

still the only country in the world to give up nukes

You forgot South Africa.
They gave up their very own nuclear program after some 30 years of development.

 

[Mr. Atoz]

Artillery isn't used because it is great. Artillery is used because it is cheap. Once you start a crash program to make artillery rounds in a much more expensive way, why not use the same money and production capability to make drones or guided rockets or javelin type missiles?

Sure, it's not as effective for reducing hostile apartment buildings and preschools to rubble, but we're not Russia.

The vast majority of casualties in this war was caused by artillery. Seems pretty great to me.

 

[ghost of christmas past]

Apparently, Putin's propaganda and imagemaking work. Meanwhile, for the last month, he is trying hard to take a Ukrainian village.

Why do I have to live through this stupidity twice ? Go ahead, buy yourself a rifle and a ticket, fly to Ukraine to fight for freedom. Just leave me and my country the fuck out of it. I'm sick to death of morons pissing away all our resources on brainless losing military crap time after time after time after time with the same retard-thinking "justifications". You and Seymour and Gus, we can take up a collection to get you over there, then you can be heroes. Leave the rest of the country out of this stupid shit.

 

[MichaelP]

Why do I have to live through this stupidity twice ?

Many people have to live through stupidity. You're not alone. But it must be tough if reincarnation doesn't help in this respect.

 

[Milland]

Why do I have to live through this stupidity twice ? Go ahead, buy yourself a rifle and a ticket, fly to Ukraine to fight for freedom. Just leave me and my country the fuck out of it.

Interesting - I didn't know Congo has a contingent of its soldiers in Ukraine. But given they're a French ally, I'm sure they'd be fighting on the side of the Ukrainians, not Russia. So given your position perhaps you should be posting in https://www.usinages.com/forums/.

As to what you post, it's entirely anti-USA rhetoric when it comes to the help the US is giving to repel a murderous Russian invasion. So the pictures you chose to post are actually in favor of giving a country the right to defend itself. The US was not welcome in Vietnam, and by far Russia is behaving in a more barbaric manner in aggregate than the US did. The US didn't commit mass kidnappings, after all.

If I didn't know you were a Congolese, I'd suggest you might be a RU propagandist. But you wouldn't mislead us as to what your motives are or where you're based, would you??

 

[ghost of christmas past]

If I didn't know you were a Congolese, I'd suggest you might be a RU propagandist. But you wouldn't mislead us as to what your motives are or where you're based, would you??

It's pretty entertaining how the educated elite are the first ones to stoop to maga tactics when the facts get too unpleasant.

Anyway, hey, I can understand your position. There's a certain appeal in death and destruction and wanton killing and megalomaniacal impulses to rule the world. Makign a decent society is so boring in comparison ... I just think that if this is important to you, you should get a plane ticket and a rifle and leave the rest of us to other pursuits.

Enjoy every sandwich.

 

[Milling man]

The US was not welcome in Vietnam, and by far Russia is behaving in a more barbaric manner in aggregate than the US did. The US didn't commit mass kidnappings, after all.

It seems to me that this is a rather controversial statement. Yes, I do not remember the mass cases of kidnappings by the US Armed Forces in Vietnam. But we all know the word "napalm" well.
Yes, most likely Russia does not do it either, not because Putin is very kind - but because it does not have fifty B-52s standing idle.
I really find it strange to argue like "You're all bad bastards too, so I'm going to burn this house down with a flamethrower." OK, during the Vietnam War, the US military committed war crimes. Not once, not twice. Virtually no one was held accountable. Those who did this and gave orders about it are war criminals. Is this supposed to somehow justify those who do something like this after that? This is complete nonsense.
And if we talk about the legal side of the issue, in Vietnam the United States defended its ally, an independent country that was attacked.

 

[Ries]

The main reason that the USA can not produce high volumes of these arty shells is that the USA has no real need for them. The USA is an air and naval power, not a land army power. Who is going to land on our shores that we would even need a large land army to defend against? Thats right if you said NOBODY. Even if some future rogue country did try how would they get here without being destroyed in transit? So no need for a large land army or any real stock of supplies for it. The euro countries like Russia, Germany, Etc are the opposite side of the coin, they are in real danger of being invaded from multiple sides and do need the large land armies, buy not so much need for air or naval power.


We here in the USA really need to learn how to mind our own business, and stay out of trying to influence the rest of the world using threats of financial ruin and/or the barrel of a gun.

The USA has the exact same supply chain problems with the production of missiles and rockets for our high tech air and naval forces. 1 or 2 factories, mostly lockheed or aerodyne, with complicated expensive dedicated production machinery, and low quantity ceilings. We have 450 anti ship missiles in stock, estimated to be a one week supply in a conflict over taiwan, and it takes two years currently to produce new ones from start of production. We will need between 5 and 13 years of current production capacity to just replace the javelins and himars and stingers We have shipped ukraine from our stock. We have one plant that makes turbofans for missiles. One titanium foundry cabable of larger castings for weapons system. One 70 year old press big enogh to forge the titanium airframes used on almost every US military plane. The list goes on. None of this is stuff you can do on a Haas TL 1.