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Change gears for GRAL swiss lathe

saji

Plastic
Joined
May 7, 2022
Hello,
I am newbie in machining and his is my first post. Recently i acquired an old small swiss lathe, named GRAL. Please see the pictures attached.The lathe comes with only very few gears (25T,100T, 127T), all other gears are missing. At the present set up I can cut only 1mm threads. The Lead screw is 8 TPI, and changing of gears is possible only with Stud and Lead screw positions, and the third one is fixed idler. I would like to cut all imperial threads, and is planning to buy new gears to cut threads from 8 TPI through 40 TPI. Could some of you please advice me what are the gears required to cut the above imperial threads. Thanks in advance.
-saji
 

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It sounds like you are only interested in cutting imperial threads. Be that as it may, I hope that you realize that you were given the key to the metric thread kingdom with the 100T and 127T gears you have. Make sure you don't lose these while you complete your collection of gears.

You can get more info about your lathe at http://www.lathes.co.uk/gral/

Enjoy

Jacques
 
Hi Jacques,
Thank you so much for the reply. The link you given above is very much informative with lot of pictures of the lathe. Really enjoyed.
Btw, I am interested in metric threads as well, but my immediate requirement is imperial. And thank you for notifying the importance of metric threads and 100T and 127T gears.
As I mentioned earlier, I am a very newbie but glad people like you are here to help me.
Thanks again,
best regards,
-saji
 
Are you sure it is an 8TPI leadscrew? It might be, but I suspect the pitch might be 3mm. It's a Swiss machine after all! That should be easy to ascertain by using a dial indicator on the bed and measuring the travel of the carriage when you turn the leadscrew a known number of times.

Similarly, you should figure out if the gears are based on the module (metric) or a diametral pitch (imperial). To do that, measure the outside diameter of each of your 3 gears and divide that dimension by the number of teeth plus 2.

If that does not quite make full sense to you, just take the measurements carefully and come back and tell us here.

Jacques
 
Jacques,
Initially I used an imperial thread guage to find the leadscrew tpi, "assuming" it's an imperial lead screw. I must be wrong.
Now, as you suggested measured the carriage travel after 10 turns of the leadscrew, using a digital caliper (as i don't have a dial indicator) , it measures 31.07 mm.

Also measured the diameter of the all gears available (i have 4, btw)
127T - 128.70 mm
100T - 101.87 mm
40T - 41.97 mm
25T - 26.67 mm
The 100T gear had been sent to the gear cutter as sample for making gears. Please advise, if you have any suggestions for the gear cutter.
Thanks again.
-saji
 
Hi Saji,

I think it is pretty obvious that the gears are module 1mm gears. From what you tell us, the theoretical diameters should have been 129, 102, 42, and 27. If you use these numbers and do as I suggested before, i.e. divide by (number of teeth + 2), you always obtain 1mm per tooth. So I'm quite confident to afirm that the gears are module 1 gears.

As for the leadscrew pitch, I am a bit at a loss. Your measurement suggest a pitch of 3.107 mm. Unfortunately, it is a git closer to 1/8" (3.175mm) than it is to 3mm. I find this strangely odd. I just can't believe a Swiss lathe with module based gears has an Imperial leadscrew.

Perhaps you can try to measure the pitch differently and see if you get a better result. With calipers, you could measure the spread of say 5 threads. Then do the same with 15 threads and take the difference between the two. It should be close to 30mm or to 31.75mm. The former would mean a 3mm pitch, the later would mean 8tpi.

Maybe that way will give you more obvious results. Ideally, you want to measure over the most threads possible to average out the measurement error. So you could do 5 and 25, or 5 and 35.

Good luck. Keep us posted. I would like to see confirmation either way for the leadscrew pitch. For the gears, I have absolutely no doubt.

Jacques
 
Jacques,
Tried again measuring the carriage travel after 10,15, 20, 25 and 30 turns of the leadscrew. The average distance per turn from each of the above trial is between 3.10mm and 3.15mm
The second method, measuring the spread between the threads on leadscrew are given below:
5 threads - 14.38
15 threads - 46.11
25 threads - 77.67
35 threads - 109.31
The averages of the differences of 5 threads with 15, 25 and 35 is 31.73mm, 31.64mm, 31.64mm respectively.
Also tried to guage with the thread pitch guage of both imperial and metric. The leadscrew seems more aligned to 8tpi pitch than the 3mm pitch guage.
Thanks again Jacques for your time explaining all these techniques .
Best regards,
-saji
 
Oh well, the numbers are winning!

I'm still a bit surprised, but I agree with you that it looks like 8tpi.

Have fun getting more comfortable with your lathe. It certainly looks like a capable machine despite its size.

Jacques
 
Oh well, the numbers are winning!

I'm still a bit surprised, but I agree with you that it looks like 8tpi.

Have fun getting more comfortable with your lathe. It certainly looks like a capable machine despite its size.

Jacques

Jacques,Thank you so much for all your help.
I plan to buy the following gears:
20T 30T 35T 45T 50T 60T 70T 75T 80T 90T
I already have 25T, 40T, 100T and 127T.
Hope the above gears would help me cut 10 TPI through 40TPI.

best regards.
-saji
 
I know nothing of that lathe but the leadscrew may be a oddball. It is not uncommon for the lead screw to be the same diameter but the thread pitch being either metric or English. My Harrioson m300 is that way. It is all metric but the lead screw and crossslide pitch is English on a metric diameter shaft.
This makes it easier to build both as the bearing journals stay in the same locations, half nuts same size etc.
I do not remember the actual numbers but it could be like 25mm with 8 threads per inch. Not 25.4mm with 8 threads per inch which would be one inch doameter
Bill D
 
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I know nothing of that lathe but the leadscrew may be a oddball. It is not uncommon for the lead screw to be the same diameter but the thread pitch being either metric or English. My Harrioson m300 is that way. It is all metric but the lead screw and crossslide pitch is English on a metric diameter shaft.
This makes it easier to build both as the bearing journals stay in the same locations, half nuts same size etc.
I do not remember the actual numbers but it could be like 25mm with 8 threads per inch. Not 25.4mm with 8 threads per inch which would be one inch doameter
Bill D
Hi Bill,
Thanks for your inputs.
Best regards,
-saji
 
I am not overly concerned about the pitch of the lead screw. If US lathe makers could make metric lead screws, then Swiss makers could certainly make English system (inch) ones.

What concerns me with this is the lack of a "banjo" arm where additional gears could be mounted. Are you sure that this lathe does not have provision for that?

Generally speaking sets of gears for cutting English system (TPI) threads are created in sizes that progress by fours or by fives. That means that they start with a small size gear, like 15 tooth and then progress with additional gears with tooth counts that are at five tooth intervals: 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60, 65, etc. This type of sequence provides all the prime numbers up to the one represented by the largest tooth count gear in the series. In my example the 65 tooth gear provides the prime number 13 because 5 x 13 = 65.

Why are prime numbers important? When you want to cut a thread that is measured in TPI (threads per inch) then your gear train/lead screw combination MUST have all of the prime numbers in it that are in in the pitch you want to cut. And in some cases you also need additional prime numbers that are in the lead screw that are NOT in the pitch you want to cut. For instance if you have an 8 TPI lead screw and want to cut a 32 TPI thread, then you have three 2s in the lead screw but 32's prime factors are five 2s so you need an additional two 2s in the gear train. Another example might be a 10 TPI lead screw and you need to cut a 36 TPI thread. 10 = 2 x 5 and 36 = 2 x 2 x 3 x 3. Your gears will need to contain the prime factors of 2, 3, 3, and 5. The 2 is for the second 2 that is not in the lead screw. The two 3s also are not in the lead screw and the 5 is in the lead screw but is not needed so it must be subtracted out in the gears.

If your lathe only allows the two gears, stud and lead screw, with only a single idler between them, then all your prime factors will have to be in the two gears mounted on those two shafts. And I fear that you should do the calculations or get a chart BEFORE you spend a lot of money having a sequence of gears made, only to find that one or many of the tooth counts you need are not in that sequence.

You say you have an 8 TPI lead screw, which is a popular size. DO CONFIRM THIS as best as you can. Then that 8 TPI lead screw has prime factors of 2 x 2 x 2. That's your starting point.

By the way, in order to cut the same TPI as the lead screw, you will need to have TWO gears with the SAME tooth count. My lathe has an 8 TPI lead screw and I have two 32 tooth gears that are used for cutting an 8 TPI thread. If you do not have an arm where compound gears can be mounted, there is no other way around this.

The general formula for the gearing on your lathe with an 8 TPI lead screw will be:

TPItoCut = 8 TPI x (ScrewGear# / StudGear#)

From that you can calculate the gears needed for each of the TPIs you wish to cut. You can also use a chart from another lathe that uses an 8 TPI lead screw. But you seem to be in favor of a sequence by fives. My lathe, with an 8 TPI lead screw, uses a sequence by fours, which probably saves money as smaller gears are needed to include the same number of primes. So, if you stick to the sequence by fives, you can only copy a table from another lathe that uses that sequence and they are probably somewhat rare.

If you want to switch to a sequence by fours, I can send you a chart.

PS: As you probably know, the idler gear can be any tooth count that spans the distance between the two gears you choose to use. It does not have any effect on the equation above.
 
Hi Paul,
Thank you so much for your response.
Yes, there is an adjustable "banjo" in the gear train, but in my machine the Banjo is fixed with a(50T)gear, in a bearing I guess. But the pictures from the http://www.lathes.co.uk/gral/ shows that gears can be mounted on the banjo. Probably the banjo in my machine needs some modification (shaft and bushing) to accept different Teeth gears or compound gears, and without which can't do any threads other than 1 mm threads,

Thanks for explaining about the prime numbers and their importance in the gear train. But not sure i clearly understood it.
Btw, I am not in favour the sequence of "fives", but the stock gears with me and the photos/literature of the gears made me to think the original gears that comes with this machine is in the sequence of 'fives", except the 127T which is for metric conversion.
Please check the attached photos (from www.lathes.co.uk).

Thanks again for your time.
-saji
 

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As for not understanding the importance of prime numbers in the gears, if you play around with the equation I gave you will quickly see that an odd thread pitch, perhaps like 26 TPI (2 x 13 = 26) can not be cut without a gear that has either 13 teeth or some multiple of that number, which is prime. Hence, 13, 26, 39, 52, etc. are all multiples of 13 and one of them will be necessary.
 
As for not understanding the importance of prime numbers in the gears, if you play around with the equation I gave you will quickly see that an odd thread pitch, perhaps like 26 TPI (2 x 13 = 26) can not be cut without a gear that has either 13 teeth or some multiple of that number, which is prime. Hence, 13, 26, 39, 52, etc. are all multiples of 13 and one of them will be necessary.
Yes, Paul. You are correct. With my existing 5 sequence gear , I will miss many thread pitches like 13,17,19,22,23,29,31,33,34,37,39.
Could you please give your 4 sequence gear list which could cut the maximum number of thread pitches from 10 TPI through 40 TPI ?
thanks again,
-saji
 








 
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