Softly looking at one right now. I am curious how dramatic they are to program, run, how productive, etc? I mostly see single turret, sub spindle machines out there so a little curious. It would be nice to have both sides of a part running with authority at the same time, but I am sure there is some drawback I am missing.
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Has anyone here had time on a twin turret, twin spindle lathe?
- Thread starter huleo
- Start date
- Replies 41
- Views 3,950
Nerdlinger
Stainless
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2013
- Location
- Chicago, IL
All of our slant bed lathes are twin spindle + single turret, but our three Tsugami Swiss lathes are twin spindle + multiple “slides” (i.e. “turrets.”) The free CAM software that comes with the machines generates the code and does a great job but there’s “real” software like Esprit that would do an even better job with toolpaths. The trick to it is essentially writing two separate programs for the different sides but with “wait codes” you put in each program where the machine “waits” until the other program comes across the same “wait code” (M5XX, in my case.) So that is, for instance, how the sub knows to “wait” for the main to be ready for pick off. The best you could ever hope for is to cut your cycle time in half and in some cases youll get almost nothing, depending on the shape of your parts. In short, programming is easy with the right software and you should be able to visualize the gains and make them a reality. I love it. Of course youll need some volume to make it worth it, but again thats a pretty easy calculation to make. Goos luck!
pcasanova
Hot Rolled
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2008
- Location
- vacaville ca
have 2 of them in that config. with the right part (balanced time on each side) like having 2 machines in one, every cycle a part kicks out. but if one side says just faces off while the other side takes 5 minutes you have one channel just hanging out, but if the part permits I can bring the other turret over and help on the other side. just have to critical on the wait codes and I do all the coding by hand.
here's a video that has the sub just faces so the lower comes over and helps,and siemens trailon function makes life so much easier, about the 5minute mark the upper and lower synch. so I bring both to a staging point, wait code and kick on the trail on. and slaves x2,y2,z2 to follow the upper turret
here's a video that has the sub just faces so the lower comes over and helps,and siemens trailon function makes life so much easier, about the 5minute mark the upper and lower synch. so I bring both to a staging point, wait code and kick on the trail on. and slaves x2,y2,z2 to follow the upper turret
If an Okuma Macturn with bottom turret counts then I run/program one. Short answer, they are a very productive, flexible machine with your imagination and machining experience the only limitation.
Pinch turn, balance turn, check. Synchronised operations to split workloads check. Use one turret as a tailstock or steady, check. Sister turning tools on one turret, sister milling tools on the other turret, check. Fixed tooling on one turret, second turret for interchangeable tooling etc etc.
Programming through cad cam is a breeze, but if you are a longhand type of guy then a little logic goes a long way. Being systematic about everything helps a lot, break a big job into small digestable chunks and away you go.
DouglasJRizzo
Titanium
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2011
- Location
- Ramsey, NJ.
Dad's shop had twin turret Okuma and I used to teach the classes on those when I worked at Doosan. They're really not to difficult and sync-ing the turrets and paths isn't that hard. What's great is the throughput. While the lower path is working the sub spindle, the upper path is advancing bar stock and running the front of the part. Very efficient.
gcodeguy
Hot Rolled
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2007
- Location
- Easton, PA
We have several single turret, main/subspindle lathes. Advantage is part is finished without the need for secondary operations. Usually! 
Some may need deburring.
We have a couple old Nakamura TW-20s and a newer Doosan TT1800SY. Advantage is not only is the part finished, but one operation is free. Obviously the ideal is to have both turrets/spindles finish at the same time, but that doesn't happen often.
Nice thing about the newer lathes is having a Y-axis.
The Nakamuras are basically two lathes. Each spindle/turret works together like a normal lathe. On the TT1800SY either turret can work on either spindle. This can come in handy when most of a turret's stations are taken up with live tooling, but the part requires more work on that end than there are stations left.
Programming isn't hard. Timing can be a little more complicated. I don't always guess right, but since I am the one setting up the Doosan, I can see where wait codes need to be moved to for the best efficiency.
Some may need deburring.We have a couple old Nakamura TW-20s and a newer Doosan TT1800SY. Advantage is not only is the part finished, but one operation is free. Obviously the ideal is to have both turrets/spindles finish at the same time, but that doesn't happen often.
Nice thing about the newer lathes is having a Y-axis.
The Nakamuras are basically two lathes. Each spindle/turret works together like a normal lathe. On the TT1800SY either turret can work on either spindle. This can come in handy when most of a turret's stations are taken up with live tooling, but the part requires more work on that end than there are stations left.
Programming isn't hard. Timing can be a little more complicated. I don't always guess right, but since I am the one setting up the Doosan, I can see where wait codes need to be moved to for the best efficiency.
You know, I keep getting that name thrown at me (Doosan), yet I seem to have apprehension with them for some reason. What control do they run? They are a Taiwan machine? yes?
I have to admit, I have not really heard anyone bashing them, just no one raving about them, and that may be my concern.
When looking at lathes, my direction is mostly focused on Mori and Okuma, but that is mostly NOT because of ability, it has to do with the robust designs they put out, and don't seem to ever wear out! However, Nakamura seems to stand out as a very serious lathe, and honestly there are probably many others I am skipping. I think we skipped over Doosan yrs ago for some reason. It might have been their price relative to everyone else. I'd rather spend 20k more and have a Mori, but that is just me.
I have to admit, I have not really heard anyone bashing them, just no one raving about them, and that may be my concern.
When looking at lathes, my direction is mostly focused on Mori and Okuma, but that is mostly NOT because of ability, it has to do with the robust designs they put out, and don't seem to ever wear out! However, Nakamura seems to stand out as a very serious lathe, and honestly there are probably many others I am skipping. I think we skipped over Doosan yrs ago for some reason. It might have been their price relative to everyone else. I'd rather spend 20k more and have a Mori, but that is just me.
Orange Vise
Titanium
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2012
- Location
- California
I think productivity depends on the part. If the part requires 50/50 main vs sub operations, it's a slam dunk. If it's more like 75/25 main vs sub, you may have to get creative and have both turrets work on the main at the same time. For example, milling a hex with both turrets.
If you don't "need" the 2nd turret, you might be more productive with two single turret lathes.
But sometimes you really need that 2nd turret - tailstock support, more tool stations, etc. Or if you simply don't have space for more lathes.
Also, once you start looking into twin turrets, pricing starts creeping into B-axis mill-turn territory. It's a slippery slope.
If you don't "need" the 2nd turret, you might be more productive with two single turret lathes.
But sometimes you really need that 2nd turret - tailstock support, more tool stations, etc. Or if you simply don't have space for more lathes.
Also, once you start looking into twin turrets, pricing starts creeping into B-axis mill-turn territory. It's a slippery slope.
gcodeguy
Hot Rolled
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2007
- Location
- Easton, PA
You may be doing the right thing. I was going to post some of our problems with them (Daewoo/Doosan), but suffice it to say our older Hardinges are better lathes. I (mostly) like our Doosan TT1800SY, but it has also had several problems the 3 years or so we've had it. Purchased new.
The owner of Eastern CNC has suggested to me more than once that we should invest in a Eurotech but the owner where I work won't spend that kind of money even though one could about/or double production on our largest job...that has been running on 1 to 3 lathes (at the same time) for the past 4-1/2 years or so. I don't understand that since parts needed per month went up so high the company is farming out some of the parts. But then I am only a programmer with no business sense. Maybe it's better to pay someone else to help meet our production quota then to buy a new lathe.
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I like how you're supporting that part with the sub.
jhearons
Cast Iron
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2003
- Location
- riverside, ca, usa
Twin spindle triple turret but we have the twin turret version coming in mid October. Incredibly productive machine, free time on second spindle ops is invaluable even if you are only doing light work. Two tools in the cut on 1 spindle also saves tons of time. We have an Okuma LT2000EX and I would definitely recommend this machine to anyone. With a bar loader we have easily had parts run lights out 24-7. The main limitation is way lube capacity on the 3 turret machine but if you can stop by for 15 minutes on a Saturday afternoon it will be banging out parts Monday morning when you open up the shop.
jhearons
Cast Iron
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2003
- Location
- riverside, ca, usa
As far as drawbacks or drama, they are expensive to tool up. Our machine has 16 station turrets and we probably have $75k of live tools. B axis machines have an advantage there. Uh-ohs can be very expensive monetarily and in time. It can take over a week to realign the machine. When you are spending this much on a machine, collision avoidance on the control and accurate simulation are worth the money. New jobs take a while to set up but programming isn’t substantially more difficult. I can’t speak for other machines but on the Okuma each turret and each spindle is programmed just like a simple lathe. X positive is increasing diameter and Z positive is moving away from the face of the part (assuming Z0 is the face).
Thanks! I'd be curious to know how you handle tool breakage detection and how you do machine simulation? I was asking about this in the CAM area as I find our CAM stuff to be hugely lacking for lathe work, yet I am trying to drive towards a good CAM solution and simulation for lathe stuff. In most cases, that turret is always very close to the spindle so one little screw up can get expensive quick.
Since you run lights out, I am assuming you have procedures for tool loss, wear, etc. It really seems that about every time I think of walking away, a parting operation fails.
Doosan (now DN) is South Korean. They mostly use Fanuc controls.
When you get to this complexity of machine, it's going to take a lot more than an extra $20k to get you from a Doosan to a Mori. More like $200k... Maybe that's an exaggeration... but maybe not.
Also, consider Miyano single turret, sub-spindle machines. Some of them have an X-axis on the sub that allows it to follow the turret so that a single turret can cut on both spindles at the same time. It saves on cost and floor space. I don't have experience with them, so I can't tell you what drawbacks that design might have.
aj
Hot Rolled
- Joined
- May 12, 2006
- Location
- Burlington, North Carolina
We have 3 Nakamura Tome WT machines and 2 Nakamura TW machines, all with twin spindles, twin turrets and live tooling on both sides.
We're a production shop. We put 12 foot bars in one end and finished parts come out the other. Quantities are usually in the 1,000 - 5,000 range. Sometimes more.
As jhearons said, live tooling isn't cheap. But you don't have to take your parts over to the mill for secondary milling operations.
Quick video of a part we make for a customer:
We're a production shop. We put 12 foot bars in one end and finished parts come out the other. Quantities are usually in the 1,000 - 5,000 range. Sometimes more.
As jhearons said, live tooling isn't cheap. But you don't have to take your parts over to the mill for secondary milling operations.
Quick video of a part we make for a customer:
I was thinking more like this:
hgrinc.com
Used XW-130 Takamaz Takamaz Xw130 CNC Twin Spindle Turning Centers For Sale
Used Takamaz Takamaz Xw130 CNC Twin Spindle Turning Centers For Sale
hgrinc.com
I would like to ask about your 12ft feeder. What speeds do you run at? We have one that is only 4ft. I was given many reasons why a 12ft may not be best. One was that we could not run our chuck to the full 6k rpm (rarely do), and harder to keep vibes out of the machine. IDK, but was considering trying to find a 6ft so we could just chop bars in half. Maybe some of this is about shop floor space? After just seeing a bar whip accident online, I am always leery about long bars at high rpm.
aj
Hot Rolled
- Joined
- May 12, 2006
- Location
- Burlington, North Carolina
Both of our 150s have a round-ish parts catcher with a spring loaded door mounted to the turret. It moves to the B spindle, catches the part and indexes around and gets kicked open by a flap in the door, which then closes and deposits the parts in a basket in the door.
aj
Hot Rolled
- Joined
- May 12, 2006
- Location
- Burlington, North Carolina
We have IEMCA bar feeders. They work pretty well unless the bars are bent or sometimes we run hex stock, which gets a bit noisy. We typically run less than 3,500 rpm. Rarely any faster.
Bar size is typically in the 3/4" to 1 1/2" range. Any bigger and we cut it into thirds because it's too heavy to lift into the machine. You can buy channels for your bar size to keep a close fit on your bar to minimize whipping. We have several sets.
If you get serious about it, talk to a rep. IEMCA makes good stuff but there's plenty of other good brands out there to chose from.
