How much do you value your employees educating themselves on their job and above and beyond.

[jim rozen]

IMO unless you have a flow bench and know how to use it, you have no business being near a cylinder head with a die grinder....

One reason I still work where I do, I can learn something new literally every day, so many smart people. 1) ask questions, 2) shut up, 3) listen as hard as you can.

 

[Garwood]

IMO unless you have a flow bench and know how to use it, you have no business being near a cylinder head with a die grinder....

I think there is a gray area in that matter.

Any idiot with a checkbook can buy a flowbench. Doesn't mean they understand what those numbers mean. More flow does not equal more power, etc. Especially true with forced induction.

I don't have a flowbench. I have cleaned up the ports in about a dozen engines with good results. My approach was just to make them about 80% less shitty. Blend the bowls to the seats a little bit, make them all approximately the same by eyeball, remove any extra shitty flash and check if the ports line up halfway close. Probably cutting less than a tablespoon of material, but a notable, worthwhile difference in my opinion. If you are changing the geometry/ volume of the ports then you should have a firm understanding of what you're doing in addition to a flowbench and a dyno.

 

[eKretz]

Well, some improvement can certainly be made without a flowbench, but any serious geometry modifications probably shouldn't be made without one. For instance, as Garwood noted: gasket matching, removing casting flash, gently rounding sharp corners in bad places, (inside radius of the intake port, etc.) getting rid of sharp edges near the spark plug in the chamber, things like that. Won't hurt to polish up exhaust ports either. Trying to make large volume or shape changes is iffy without a way to quantify airflow changes, but that's not to say no improvements can be made.

 

[huleo]

I think there is a gray area in that matter.

Any idiot with a checkbook can buy a flowbench. Doesn't mean they understand what those numbers mean. More flow does not equal more power, etc. Especially true with forced induction.

I don't have a flowbench. I have cleaned up the ports in about a dozen engines with good results. My approach was just to make them about 80% less shitty. Blend the bowls to the seats a little bit, make them all approximately the same by eyeball, remove any extra shitty flash and check if the ports line up halfway close. Probably cutting less than a tablespoon of material, but a notable, worthwhile difference in my opinion. If you are changing the geometry/ volume of the ports then you should have a firm understanding of what you're doing in addition to a flowbench and a dyno.

While I understand what you are saying, in a general sense, that is not correct. More air is more go-go. No need to shift the convo in this thread but I have seen where people just blindly open ports and all they did was hurt the throttle response. More flow in the wrong place is not helpful. First mistake is assuming OEM engineers are stupid. They decide carefully on port geometry and flow to optimize for certain driving conditions. As you try to sneak more power, you will want to run hotter RPM, which clamps down on port time area, so bigger ports are needed, but sometimes the right cam is all you need! Fully agree with a simple port cleanup if done right.

The real trick in port flow is a careful study of port velocity and air density. Air density is closely tied to air temp. We have all heard the BS about "how many lbs of boost you got, bro?" Like that question is ignorant in so many ways because what we are looking for is air density. This is why charge air coolers are so important, and a wonderful understanding of latent heat in of Methanol.

 

[michiganbuck]

Diplomacy is very important. Some bosses are intimidated by a guy who is too quick to make comments about too many things..Very important to try to be the aid to a problem..Not the argument..

 

[Garwood]

While I understand what you are saying, in a general sense, that is not correct. More air is more go-go. No need to shift the convo in this thread but I have seen where people just blindly open ports and all they did was hurt the throttle response. More flow in the wrong place is not helpful. First mistake is assuming OEM engineers are stupid. They decide carefully on port geometry and flow to optimize for certain driving conditions. As you try to sneak more power, you will want to run hotter RPM, which clamps down on port time area, so bigger ports are needed, but sometimes the right cam is all you need! Fully agree with a simple port cleanup if done right.

The real trick in port flow is a careful study of port velocity and air density. Air density is closely tied to air temp. We have all heard the BS about "how many lbs of boost you got, bro?" Like that question is ignorant in so many ways because what we are looking for is air density. This is why charge air coolers are so important, and a wonderful understanding of latent heat in of Methanol.

My primary focus is turbodiesels so you might choke up a little on the broad statements as they may only apply when spark plugs are present, but I think we would generally be in agreement.

There was a time when I thought automotive engineers were stupid. After designing, manufacturing and selling automotive products for 16 years I have a fair understanding of what the OEM's have to deal with. Most OEM designs are very good overall. Many aftermarket parts are only possible because we don't have to contend with safety regulations, speed of assembly, and cost reduction.

We can make it unsafe, difficult to install and expensive as long as it looks cool people will buy it.

 

[huleo]

My primary focus is turbodiesels so you might choke up a little on the broad statements as they may only apply when spark plugs are present, but I think we would generally be in agreement.

There was a time when I thought automotive engineers were stupid. After designing, manufacturing and selling automotive products for 16 years I have a fair understanding of what the OEM's have to deal with. Most OEM designs are very good overall. Many aftermarket parts are only possible because we don't have to contend with safety regulations, speed of assembly, and cost reduction.

We can make it unsafe, difficult to install and expensive as long as it looks cool people will buy it.

The major downfall of all modern diesels is emissions crap, and the OEM engineers know it! The Ford 6.0 and 6.4 were actually very well designed, but emissions failures bit them badly. There is no doubt the GM L5P is a true race bred engine through and through. I get entirely too wound about "programmers" because very few actually understand the injection event, thus why many tunes puke black smoke and get EGTs all whacked out.

I want to puke when I hear people try to bash Gale Banks. That man is a legend that has a complete understanding of the diesel cycle, and his work goes far beyond just making power. He wants reliable, efficient, and properly engineered components. He has the right equipment and engineers to do power ups the right way! They do a complete study of all engine components and will identify when something like rods or pistons are at their limit. This is why people insult him, because his designs might not throw down the "dyno war" numbers that people are obsessed with. But he works to ensure components work within reasonable safety margins.

 

[jim rozen]

Smooth is better, right? This is why golf balls are smooth.

 

[Garwood]

The major downfall of all modern diesels is emissions crap, and the OEM engineers know it! The Ford 6.0 and 6.4 were actually very well designed, but emissions failures bit them badly.

A fair portion of my livelihood comes from parts that reside inside those platforms. Some aspects are well designed, but I cannot agree it was just emissions that took Navistar out of the light diesel market.

The 6.0 should have been commonrail.

6.0 and 6.4 used the same strategy for MLS gasket sealing and lifter trays used by GM on their gasoline engines. The head and deck finishes were a bad engineering decision for a turbodiesel. The valvetrain compromise was a cost reduction requirement to meet Ford's pricepoint.

The 6.0 was originally designed as a camless engine. The tech didn't work so they snuck a camshaft in there.

The Ford version 6.4 piston bowl design was an emissions dictated deficiency, but you don't see Cummins or Duramax pistons coming apart.

 

[ttrager]

This is pretty tricky to answer given there is no one answer. Michiganbuck and a couple of others point out some practical thoughts.

1) Your place of business will determine, to high degree, if this is even meaningful. Both in terms of "policy" and, more importantly, Leadership. Does Leadership demonstrate they are looking for that?

2) It's harder nowadays to foster the idea of personal development (in my opinion) due to smart phones infecting every dang minute of everyone's time. The TIME that used to be open/available (opportunity) for people to show initiative when they've got some spare time is now consumed by smart phone use. People come in, clock in, go to their positions, and just do the minimum to get their work done, and between cycles it's smarty-phone doodling. Not everyone mind you, the really good ones, and we have a few here, are not enslaved to their smarty phones. But, in general, this is a relatively new phenomenon that's degraded the workforce in certain segments.

3) What I look for are people that are "Heads Up". These are the people who demonstrate basic common sense, attention to their jobs, willing to say something if they see something "wrong" or out of place, seeks to expand their experience, willing to help someone else if they see that other person needs it. They are heads up, they are aware of their surroundings, brains engaged.

4) It's up to Leadership to keep tabs on "Future Proofing" people, and their business. Part of that, IMO, is to present opportunities for expanded experience, or education, for people that show the traits in #3 above. The employee might come up with that on their own mind you (e.g. taking classes for CNC programming), but Leadership should be TRACKING who's got what training and education, how is their performance, .etc.

In the end, it's about Initiative and Interest. Both on the part of a good employee and a good Boss/Leader.

The trick here is . . . Initiative and Interest . . . not so much the "good employee" part. You can have a perfectly good, or even great employee who's doing what they've always done, do it really well and reliably, but who has no interest in doing anything else. That doesn't make them a bad employee, it just means they've found their niche and may not want to go beyond that.

So, look for the heads-up people, the ones asking questions, willing to step outside their boxes.

 

[jscpm]

Unless Sesame Street has an XXX-rated mobile version, I don't think my employees will be learning anything soon.

 

[rogertoolmaker]

I hope I can help guide you. As someone that started in manufacturing while going to engineering school, I can speak on both sides of the fence pretty well. I started work building race engines and components for them. I used to get all the wrench heads asking questions and I got SO tired of pure bullshi* being spouted from these idiots. As I would explain to people, "there are a LOT of idiots out there that have ruined a lot of engines trying to port them without a single clue of understanding of how air moves!" In short, these idiots would have all these knife edges in the intake ports in SUBSONIC airflow regions. Sharper is faster, right??? LMAO.

What I am getting at is you seem to want to know the what/why, and you might learn some things, but a real engineering level core understanding means you can apply the knowledge to any other field of work!

Usually when someone is fixated on the learning, I remind them that unless you learn the basics, you cannot fully understand what is going on. If I start rattling on about "elastic and plastic deformation", you will quickly understand the concept, but you won't actually understand the why and how we select and tune an alloy to give the performance required for an application. To this point, what I tell people is this, every single book I ever used in school can be bought off the street! The only thing college is, is someone charging you an insane price to force you to read those books! No one EVER follows my advice because it is too much work. But I can assure you, reading is not the way to lock things into memory. This is why there is homework, tests, and experiments. You will know you have "the knack" when you read something new in the book, and you go buy a bunch of bolts and start doing failure testing, and proving things to yourself!

If you have good engineers in your biz, they may be quite open to helping you if they know you are in the books!!! Have well thought out questions. Don't just ask them the difference in yield and ultimate strength. learn the units we work in! Numbers are useless without units of measure.

But seems like I will be the first to commend you on an interest in learning! You are the type of guy I look for! I would say many owners don't have that mentality. they just want a job done.

let me give you a short story. I was working in a huge facility and there was an apparent problem in that they laid off the only person educated on the lock systems in the whole place! DUMB! Indication was this guy spent several days in CA on a few trips to learn how to key up locks, build cylinders, etc. Somehow or another everyone knew I was the smartest guy in the room and the question was asked, "do you think you can figure this out?" I told them IDK because I had never done any of it. They basically gave me whatever time and resources I needed as the problem needed solved. All I had was a bunch of numbers, sequences, build sheets, and fixtures to build these things. Within 24hrs I returned to the war room to enlighten that I solved it and I proved it. I was then tasked with all secure lock work for the entire facility and granted top clearance to everything.

I'm not sharing that to stroke my ego, but what happened here is 20 people in that room knew I was a guy that can figure things out. If you take the time to properly educate yourself and learn things outside your field, new opportunities will arise for you! And if you didn't know, many of the "engineers" involved with NASA during the Apollo days did NOT have degrees! They were vetted on their competence. Don't EVER let someone tell you that you can't do it because you don't have the papers. Prove them wrong!!!!

I do not have a piece of paper saying I am supposed to know what I am doing. I would be pleased if they mark my tomb stone. "Tool and Diemaker". There is pride in Practical Skills. Learn as much as you can. There are all phases and levels to toolmaking. In another life I taught Tool and Die on an Apprentice program. If you want to learn as much as you can about your craft. Teach it. Teach the theory in a Classroom. You will learn what you think you know, but not quite. "It is amazing what I have learned and humbled by what there is to learn". Remember to "hone your people skills". Guard your Reputation. During my lifetime I worked as a Planning Engineer, Product Engineer, Toolmaker, Machine Designer, Tool Designer, Toolroom Supervisor and Engineering Manager. I am now a hobby machinist; thirty years retired. I am still called on from time to time for my aid. "If a man has good hogs or good lumber or good organs, though he lives in the woods". They will beat a path to their door.
Roger

 

[M.B. Naegle]

More knowledge is always better. I think the only downside is when you start to change the terms of your employment without having your employer on board with it. In other words, if they hire you as a button pusher, and you become a full engineer, they could love to have your skill and wisdom on board, but that doesn't mean you're entitled to a raise. You can learn everything under the sun and be better for it, but it's not all going to apply to your job. Similarly, we've had guys try to "push" to make things better/faster/stronger than is necessary just for the sake of "wouldn't it be cool," and it can be just as destructive to a business as making things below standards. All improvement is good, but it has to be a team effort with everyone pulling their weight and everyone being in agreement.

Being open and honest with your boss is the key IMO. If you intend to stay long term and move up in the company, ask them what you can do. If you come across as "I want to be in charge," It's unlikely that you'll go far, but if you want to help lighten the load so that others can do better, people love that kind of support. In my experience, most shops have problems with too little people who know how things work and they have only so many hours in the day. Sometimes that's just a problem with delegation, but you can still help move things along by making yourself available, qualified, and earning their trust.

In the end, we can't all be employed as CEO's, but if you have the desire to learn all you can with the intent of making the world a better place, while also being happy with how things are "today," it makes life more enjoyable.

 

[Freedommachine]

So many guys are content to play phone games or viedos waiting for the machine to cycle the next part. Enough time to home school a new job title.

Not me. I like to spend my time on pm arguing with grumpy old men

Really though; if you're not growing, you're dying. Knowledge helps us to gain new skills and refine others. If a "boss" doesn't want to pay me for that, then his company doesn't need to benefit from those particular skills. No hard feelings about it.

In my opinion, employment is only a means to obtain income. What we do with that income is much more important than how we earn it.

The knowledge we set out to obtain for the sake of refinement in life shouldn't be based around the value it may bring someone else.

In the world of employee's there are thinker's and there are doer's. If you are wearing both hats... You need to either become a partner in their business or quit and start your own.

If an employer pays someone to work, they could care less about the value of that person's knowledge outside of the scope of their work duties.

If an employer pays someone to think, they could care less about their craftsmanship abilities. As a matter of fact, when was the last time you've heard of a thinker offering to do labor?

 

[EndlessWaltz]

The more you know the more you can laugh at the people that tell you don't know, and the more you are worth to your future next employer. I am constantly engaged and learning and sadly their are people that gave up in life that want you to as well.

 

[AJ H]

If an employer pays someone to work, they could care less about the value of that person's knowledge outside of the scope of their work duties.

If an employer pays someone to think, they could care less about their craftsmanship abilities. As a matter of fact, when was the last time you've heard of a thinker offering to do labor?

Had an Economics teacher back in high school trying to dissuade kids from being career roofers because your body won't hold up until retirement. He said, "you can be paid for what you know, or paid for what you do, I'd rather be paid for what I know". I feel like in this line of work it's a combination of both. Which in today's world is becoming increasingly invaluable.

 

[michiganbuck]

QT Op (But there can be problems occasionally with those "superior" folks you alluded to. )
It can be a huge waste of time to be expected to answer the most basic questions. Yes. we often answer such questions here on PM and that is good to a point. Such answering is limited and can turn a site into a hobby site.
Someone who wants to someday make an apprentice level should buy a few books and self-lean the minimum.

 

[Strostkovy]

I expect people to learn on the job continuously for the most part. Some people are happy where they are, which is fine but leaves them no room for promotions or raises (inflation adjustments aside).
We always support people wanting to learn more on their own. For example if someone wants to learn CAD or the laser, but it's not financially viable for us to train them on the job, we'll help them on off time get going on their own projects. One guy is learning CAD 90% on his own, but gets all the machine time and help he needs after hours to make his parts at no cost.
The only time we will mandate people learn on their own is when they oversell their abilities on hiring. We do what we can to vet people, but until you assign them a project it can be hard to know for sure.

 

[William Payne]

but it's not financially viable for us to train them on the job,

This is something I see first hand, if staff received more hands on training the staff would increase their value and the company would benefit greatly via increase in productivity. But the company does not view it as financially viable to allow the time required for the staff to get the training they need. When you also ask them what is expected of employees if they want to earn (insert number here) they are unable to answer the question.

 

[Strostkovy]

This is something I see first hand, if staff received more hands on training the staff would increase their value and the company would benefit greatly via increase in productivity. But the company does not view it as financially viable to allow the time required for the staff to get the training they need. When you also ask them what is expected of employees if they want to earn (insert number here) they are unable to answer the question.

I get where you are coming from but we aren't teaching a welder to design a full product on company time, and we aren't teaching our powder coater how to make production quality welds, and we aren't teaching our accountant how to service a CO2 laser.
We have all of these positions filled, and often with redundancy. And if we have an opening in an advanced position, it makes far more sense to hire someone with experience in the correct field.
We will always tell people what they can learn or do to be more valuable to the company and earn more money, but receiving 500 hours of training on company time ain't it.