Advice needed on buying a new or used Tormach CNC Mill

[AmericanMaker]

Be smart with your money. Go talk to real people and see how they make money with CNC's. You're not going to learn what you need to know from the internet.

I'm learning tons here thanks to all your comments, input and recommendations. And I have a lot more to learn. When this conversation started I was going to buy a Tormach. This thread convinced me to do otherwise. I don't know what the private market is like in my area, but I have an idea where to start. I'll comment here what I find out. Thanks guys!

BTW ... Is there something like a Kelly Blue Book for machinery where one can go find the value of used equipment? I googled that idea but didn't find anything except for heavy equipment.

 

[LOTT]

In 8-10 years when Haas has dropped support for the control, the garage guy with a Haas will be in a world of hurt when a board dies. The garage guy with a Fanuc will be able to go to Fanuc, TIE, ebay, etc and have plenty of options to get a spare or repair.

Sure, and I think that was mentioned earlier in the thread. But the 2018 TM-1 is going to be supported for the time the OP needs it.


Mainly I'm pointing out that not everyone has the repair skillset of people like you and Garwood. I've struggled with older machines, and gotten though it with advice from you and others, but it's not what I want to be doing.

We've pulled the OP back from the ledge on Tormach, even if he doesn't go full blown quality heavy iron I'm calling it a win.

 

[newtonsapple]

OP, since you are nearing retirement, one thing to keep in mind is how hard do you really want to work? You can build and make some cool stuff with a mill. Job shop work can be hard and a real slog sometimes. It can also be pretty stressful, particularly when you don't know what you are doing.

Have you ever done production manufacturing of any sort? It is easy to underestimate how hard some of these guys work.

My suggestion is to find some small production parts you can run on your current lathe and mill. This might be some part you need around the shop that you can justify making 20 of. Work through load, machine, unload, and deburr. Deburring alone can become mind numbing for some while others find a weird zen place in it. Not everything gets deburred in the machine and not everything can be tumbled, particularly when you don't get to design the parts. Get 100 pcs off your manual equipment and see how much you really like this work. CNC work isn't all that different. Sure you get to program things, but there will be many days in a row where you just load, press start, unload, deburr.

 

[LOTT]

OP, since you are nearing retirement, one thing to keep in mind is how hard do you really want to work? You can build and make some cool stuff with a mill. Job shop work can be hard and a real slog sometimes. It can also be pretty stressful, particularly when you don't know what you are doing.

Have you ever done production manufacturing of any sort? It is easy to underestimate how hard some of these guys work.

My suggestion is to find some small production parts you can run on your current lathe and mill. This might be some part you need around the shop that you can justify making 20 of. Work through load, machine, unload, and deburr. Deburring alone can become mind numbing for some while others find a weird zen place in it. Not everything gets deburred in the machine and not everything can be tumbled, particularly when you don't get to design the parts. Get 100 pcs off your manual equipment and see how much you really like this work. CNC work isn't all that different. Sure you get to program things, but there will be many days in a row where you just load, press start, unload, deburr.

Are you trying to scare him out of this?Trying to run production on his current machines would be torturous.

 

[newtonsapple]

Are you trying to scare him out of this? Trying to run production on his current machines would be torturous.

Ha, yes and no. I am coming at this as someone who doesn't really like running production. I'm an engineer and happy to sit on a production assembly line when needed. I have operators who are way better in terms of consistency than me and are happy to show up everyday to run the same parts.

Today I made 15 brackets to mount quick disconnect air manifolds. These are dead simple 3" square aluminum plates with 4x tapped holes. Even machining stacked 3 up, I am sort of annoyed by the end of tapping and deburring.

Spending some time cranking out modest volumes on his existing machines seems like a good idea before deciding to jump into a new career.

If you have time and aren't concerned about making money, even a Tormach can make cool parts. It's an acceptable hobby machine if you can find a reasonable deal on a used one.

 

[Garwood]

BTW ... Is there something like a Kelly Blue Book for machinery where one can go find the value of used equipment? I googled that idea but didn't find anything except for heavy equipment.

You kinda have to write your own KBB for machines.

This is what I do-

When I find a machine I'm interested in, I research it online. I don't buy anything other than Fanuc and Mitsubishi controls. I know they are well supported and have a low cost to own. So if the machine fits that criterium I look for current and old for sale and auction listings. I try to get a feel for how many of that model were made, problems people have with them and my #1 concern is really determining if there is a large percentage of that machine for sale compared to how many were made? I won't put a number to it, but if I see a shitload of a certain machine for sale that says to me they aren't that great.

Also, look at SOLD prices on ebay. You will probably notice disparaging differences between what dealers are asking for machines VS what Ebay sold prices show.

I probably bash them too much, but Fadal is a great example of this. There are more Fadals for sale at any given time then any other machine tool. Lots of folks start out with them because they're cheap and the hook for many is that they're "easy to fix". The problem is they have to be fixed constantly. When people get busy with work fixing that fadal constantly becomes a liability.

Keep in mind the importance of the seller here too. When you say you're clueless and just starting out there's a good chance that buying from a local private party can have some perks. You might negotiate for help setting up and running your first part. It might be real handy to buy from someone you can call if you do have a problem. Don't expect the world, but it wouldn't be a bad idea to do business with someone you get the feeling would help you out of a jamb if it came to that.

This brings me to another point- I notice Haas folks generally don't do much of their own repairs. Mother Haas frowns on this. Haas has done an excellent job of publishing how to make stuff videos while simultaneously doing absolutely fuckall to support people repairing their own stuff. I have owned Haas's. I have repaired them. The repair procedure for anything past basic common sense stuff is "replace board" or "call Haas". IMO that's bullshit. Haas parts and service used to be affordable. It is no longer that way whatsoever.

Again, go seek out real shops, especially small ones, that you can maybe buy the owner lunch and pick his brain. Peak inside real shops and see what they're running for machines. Haas is not as prevalent as their online advertising campaigns would have you believe.

And CNC controls all do the same thing. Haas, Fanuc, Mazatrol, OSP, whatever. If you can learn one you can learn another very easily. They all work the same. If a Haaspert cannot figure out how to run a Fanuc efficiently in a half hour or so there's something wrong.

It's like John Deere VS Cat controls. They work exactly the same, but some people make the biggest deal about not having a hard button for something or going through an extra menu page. It's not a big deal at all. Reliability and support is way more important.

Also, taking the current global economic climate into consideration, those saying that a $28k Haas Mini will be worth $35k in 2 years may not have went to all the Haas filled shop auctions around 2009-2011? I sure remember those days. Haas values met with reality for awhile there.

 

[majohnson]

There’s some good info. There was a Sharp 2412S up for auction a couple of weeks ago, I bid up to $7500 someone came in and sniped it from me for $8500. It was in Michigan and getting it to Colorado would be expensive. The only difference it didn’t have the chip conveyer and had a 16 tool changer. The dealer has a $20K premium roughly.

Haas has done a few controller upgrades, replacing one is roughly $8K last I priced one. It has been one of the hindrances for me purchasing on older unit.

 

[AmericanMaker]

OP, since you are nearing retirement, one thing to keep in mind is how hard do you really want to work?

First ... what the heck is OP?

At some point I will "retire" from software engineering. I've been doing that since 1986. I am more than good leaving that behind when the time comes. But, I'm really not that interested in "retiring." I'm excited about the possibility of a new self-employed career, and the hard work and challenges that are to come .

Ask me 7 to 10 years from now how I feel? I may be singing a new tune by then.

 

[Comatose]

OP is "original poster."

Also, just to throw this out, if you want to turn a pile of cash into a pile of parts that may or may not pay for themselves, with a "nearing retirement" amount of energy from you, you want a lathe with a bar feeder, not a mill.

We had a whole other thread about this recently.

 

[triumph406]

.

I probably bash them too much, but Fadal is a great example of this. There are more Fadals for sale at any given time then any other machine tool. Lots of folks start out with them because they're cheap and the hook for many is that they're "easy to fix". The problem is they have to be fixed constantly. When people get busy with work fixing that fadal constantly becomes a liability.

No they don't I have 2 1991 4020's, in 5 years they've needed one set of lube fittings, a leadscrew universal joint, and a resolver

Last place I worked had 20+ Fadals worked hard, running 24/7 5-1/2 days a week. There was one machine that needed constant maintenance, the others virtually no maintenance whatsover. In the 10 years I was there only 1 or 2 fadals got swapped out.

Y'al think they need costant maintenace, in my experience they don't. I think y'all think because there's numerous sources for all Fadal parts that means they are constantly requiring maintenece. It's because there's still a shit ton of Fadals out there still being run.

The Mexicans send a lot of Fadals south of the border.Why would they do that? The only other machines they touch are machines with Fanuc contrls, especially Mori's.

 

[F35Machinist]

Back in the 2010s when I was going to auctions, you could buys used machines of every make and mode for almost nothing. Auctions were in person only and the only people there were a handful of resellers and crusty old shop owners, each more tight-fisted than the next. The auctioneers were still total scammers and still would try every trick in the book to trick people, but so few would show up that machines wouldn’t even sell and often had 0 bids. Sometimes you could talk to the auctioneer at the end and offer to take it for free just to get it out of the building. The cheapest VMCs I saw were 8 kitamura mycenters from the 90s that all went between 1-2k each. I would often see Mori seikis go for 10k and fadals for less than 5k. The most expensive mills were always haas for some reason.

Things are different now and auctions are online only. There are way more bidders and they seem to want to pay higher prices. When I used to go in person, everyone would shoot you dirty looks if they thought you were bidding too high.

I would still look into auctions if I were in the market for a used machine. You have to go in person to inspect them before bidding if you don’t want to buy a lemon, but you get a real chance to get a great machine before the resellers get their paws on it.

 

[mhajicek]

Ha, yes and no. I am coming at this as someone who doesn't really like running production. I'm an engineer and happy to sit on a production assembly line when needed. I have operators who are way better in terms of consistency than me and are happy to show up everyday to run the same parts.

Today I made 15 brackets to mount quick disconnect air manifolds. These are dead simple 3" square aluminum plates with 4x tapped holes. Even machining stacked 3 up, I am sort of annoyed by the end of tapping and deburring.

Spending some time cranking out modest volumes on his existing machines seems like a good idea before deciding to jump into a new career.

If you have time and aren't concerned about making money, even a Tormach can make cool parts. It's an acceptable hobby machine if you can find a reasonable deal on a used one.

Tapping and most deburring should be done by the machine.

 

[Garwood]

Things are different now and auctions are online only. There are way more shill bidders milking higher prices from the same number of bidders. When I used to go in person, everyone would shoot you dirty looks if they thought you were bidding too high.

I fixed that for you.

 

[Garwood]

No they don't I have 2 1991 4020's, in 5 years they've needed one set of lube fittings, a leadscrew universal joint, and a resolver

Last place I worked had 20+ Fadals worked hard, running 24/7 5-1/2 days a week. There was one machine that needed constant maintenance, the others virtually no maintenance whatsover. In the 10 years I was there only 1 or 2 fadals got swapped out.

Y'al think they need costant maintenace, in my experience they don't. I think y'all think because there's numerous sources for all Fadal parts that means they are constantly requiring maintenece. It's because there's still a shit ton of Fadals out there still being run.

The Mexicans send a lot of Fadals south of the border.Why would they do that? The only other machines they touch are machines with Fanuc contrls, especially Mori's.

I've seen truckloads of pin clutch stamping presses go to Mexico too.

I'm not sure what to say about the Fadal reliability thing. Maybe a Fadal is a great fit for you because you're not pushing it?

 

[F35Machinist]

I fixed that for you.

You are 100% correct about the shill bidders. They were there in person too, but the dirty tricks they can play online are on a whole new level. I haven't bought from an auction in years now because of how dishonest the auctioneers have become. They were always scum, but I still think it's harder for them to scam someone face to face than over the internet.

 

[triumph406]

The cheapest VMCs I saw were 8 kitamura mycenters from the 90s that all went between 1-2k each.

That sounds like an auction I went to in Anaheim about the same time period. Should have bought some machines at that auction.

The auctioneers were still total scammers and still would try every trick in the book to trick people,

There was an auction outfit, well known around SoCal. If you ever went to an auction were the auctioneer was being pushed around on a tall pedestal, that was them. Well they would send shill buyers to auctions, bid up machines, win the machine, and at the end of the auction dissapear, of course loosing their deposit. A few days later after the auction, the auction outfit would call and "enquire" if there were any machines that hadn't sold. Which there were, because there shill buyer had dissapeared. They would then buy the machines for a substantial discount.

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Then there was Reliable Tool. I would see them making ridic bids for machines, to my mind way more then they were worth. The inside story was that they were laundering money for the cartels. Got some screaming deals on tooling from those guys.

 

[triumph406]

I'm not sure what to say about the Fadal reliability thing. Maybe a Fadal is a great fit for you because you're not pushing it?

I don't push the Fadal hard, that's true. I could I guess, and go home a little earlier, or make more parts.

One of the misconceptions you hear about Fadals is they can't cut steel very well. The last place I worked that had the 20+ Fadals cut a lot of 17-4/15-5/13-8 on the Fadals, and they ran them hard, no problems from what I remember, other then that one machine. The boxway Fadals are more rigid then the linear way Fadals, that I do remember.

There are a lot of myths about Fadals, mostly perpetuated by people who don't have one. Fadals are crude and rude, and get the job done. Mine works for me.

I've seen truckloads of pin clutch stamping presses go to Mexico too.

Interesting, should tell my neighbour he's got one in the corner he doesn't use

 

[F35Machinist]

That sounds like an auction I went to in Anaheim about the same time period. Should have bought some machines at that auction.



There was an auction outfit, well known around SoCal. If you ever went to an auction were the auctioneer was being pushed around on a tall pedestal, that was them. Well they would send shill buyers to auctions, bid up machines, win the machine, and at the end of the auction dissapear, of course loosing their deposit. A few days later after the auction, the auction outfit would call and "enquire" if there were any machines that hadn't sold. Which there were, because there shill buyer had dissapeared. They would then buy the machines for a substantial discount.

---------------------------------------------------

Then there was Reliable Tool. I would see them making ridic bids for machines, to my mind way more then they were worth. The inside story was that they were laundering money for the cartels. Got some screaming deals on tooling from those guys.

Yep. That's the auction I was talking about. If I recall correctly, there was also a Mori Seiki horizontal that went for 12k at that auction. There were also 2 colchester harrison mills that went for way more than everything else there and I saw that they didn't actually sell and the auctioneers were selling them on ebay a month later. The original owner of that shop was there too to buy back some of his stuff since he sold the shop some years back I was told.

 

[MachineAmateur]

I think the rush is your worst enemy here, if there is a way to alleviate it somehow. Like if the part you were talking about is not very complicated, you could arguably start off with quite inexpensive manual milling machine, even new one. I had an option to use my friends decent manual milling machine and coupled with 2000$ chinese lathe, it suited most of my personal prototyping needs for many years. If your parts can be made from plastic then i would start off with decent 3d printer or order printed parts from the internet, they are cheap.

If you want to play around with CNC something then i would purchase CNC lathe, they are much more affordable and coupled with manual milling machine you can make many things with high accuracy.

I spent 5 years looking for a decent CNC machine for my hobby use and it ended up being much more expensive than i initially thought when i found the suitable one. I also have my wife as a backstop for these kinds of purchases and you have to respect their position on the issue, do not push it too much as you are practically spending from limited shared pool of money.

 

[JasHarvey]

Of course you want to know how many run time hours the machine has and further how many tool changes the machine has made. It's sort of like looking at mileage on a car. Also a good thing to know is how much clamping force the machine spindle still has. Machines loose clamping force over time so that is a nice number to know. The gages that measure clamping force are pretty expensive though so you might want to borrow one. Hope that helps.