10EE 60/53 Transposer Pitches

[peterh5322]

As previously reported Here a 60/53 transposer using end gears "by threes" from 24 T to 42 T is an excellent choice.

"By threes" from 24 T would mean end gears of 24, 27, 30, 33, 36, 39 and 42 T would normally be required.

However, 39 T gives no usable pitches, and in order to cover one standard pitch a 34 T end gear must be added, and in order to cover two other standard pitches a 38 T end gear must be added, for a total of eight end gears including the standard 30 T end gear, meaning seven new end gears must be made.

The basic error is 0.016 percent (15 of the 21 standard and 23 standard/model-maker's pitches), with an average error over all standard/model-maker's pitches of 0.054 percent.

The results are as follows ...

6.0mm ... 36 T end gear ... 0.016 percent error

5.5mm ... 33 T end gear ... 0.016 percent error

5.0mm ... 30 T end gear ... 0.016 percent error

4.5mm ... 27 T end gear ... 0.016 percent error

4.0mm ... 24 T end gear ... 0.016 percent error

3.5mm ... 42 T end gear ... 0.016 percent error

3.0mm ... 36 T end gear ... 0.016 percent error

2.5mm ... 30 T end gear ... 0.016 percent error

2.0mm ... 24 T end gear ... 0.016 percent error

1.75mm ... 42 T end gear ... 0.016 percent error

1.5mm ... 36 T end gear ... 0.016 percent error

1.25mm ... 30 T end gear ... 0.016 percent error

1.0mm ... 24 T end gear ... 0.016 percent error

0.8mm ... 30 T end gear ... -0.157 percent error

0.7mm ... 38 T end gear ... 0.062 percent error (Note: special end gear)

0.75mm ... 36 T end gear ... 0.016 percent error

0.6mm ... 30 T end gear ... -0.157 percent error

0.5mm ... 24 T end gear ... 0.016 percent error

0.45mm ... 34 T end gear ... 0.582 percent error (Note: special end gear)

0.4mm ... 30 T end gear ... -0.157 percent error

0.35mm ... 38 T end gear ... 0.062 percent error (Note: special end gear)

0.3mm ... 30 T end gear ... -0.157 percent error (Note: model-maker's pitch)

0.25mm ... 27 T end gear ... -0.464 percent error (Note: model-maker's pitch)

 

[matt_isserstedt]

The remaining challenge may be to correlate this info into a "machine plate" which has it all laid out into a nice tabular form corresponding with the positions of the selector.

-Matt

 

[peterh5322]

And ... here it is ...

 

[indmachrep]

peter is it your intent to make gears for the 10ee? i also would like to refresh on this matter are we using 14.5 pitch and it is a total of how many gear? and does it matter which 10ee gets this gear set or is it specific to new hieght old height round dial square dial. so give me a total of gears and teeth if you can.

 

[peterh5322]

"peter is it your intent to make gears for the 10ee?"

Make, as in put into production? No.

Modify, install and fit one kit for my own machine? Yes.

All required gears are available from stock from Boston Gear Works as 16 diametral pitch (DP) 14-1/2 pressure angle (PA) change gears.

If you make a new 60/53 compound gear, you can utilize your 10EE for all required turning operations.

Otherwise, you would need temporary access to another turning tool, at least in order to adapt the 60 teeth quadrant gear to accept the required 53 teeth gear on top of it.

Remember, in this concept, the existing 30 T end gear, which is reversible or is required to be made reversible, is used as a gage to fit the 53 T gear to the 60 T gear; and, thereafter, the 60/53 T compound gear is used as a gage to fit the required new end gears.


"i also would like to refresh on this matter are we using 14.5 pitch and it is a total of how many gear?"

If you make a new 60/53 transposer, nine new gears will be required: 24, 27, 33, 34, 36, 38, 42, 53 and 60 teeth, all from the same Boston Gear 16 DP 14-1/2 PA series.

If you figure out some way of piggy-backing the 53 T onto the existing 60 T quadrant gear, then eight new gears will be required: 24, 27, 33, 34, 36, 38, 42 and 53 teeth.


"and does it matter which 10ee gets this gear set or is it specific to new height old height round dial square dial. so give me a total of gears and teeth if you can."

I have no old height, round dial machine from which to evaluate that issue.

The Monarch patent for the round dial machine shows the end gears being open, and there being no "quadrant"; rather there being two fully adjustable positions not unlike those in a traditional "banjo" implementation.

The ideas we have been discussing here have assumed a "quadrant" implementation with a fixed 60 T gear, which is the most restrictive implementation possible.

Yet, even with this not insignificant restriction, a very good metric adaptation, one which does not require a 127 teeth gear; one which utilizes standard 16 DP 14-1/2 PA change gears; and one which even utilizes the existing 30 T end gear, and possibly even utilizes the existing 60 T quadrant gear, was shown to be feasible.

I assume this concept is also adaptable to an old height, round dial machine.

 

[peterh5322]

Camera-ready art is available Here .

 

[peterh5322]

Here are all available pitches, some of which are useless, but some of which may be of use in special situations.

Note, particularly, the availability of 0.9mm (as 0.9052mm), 2.25mm (as 2.2504mm), 3.25mm (as 3.2505mm), 6.5mm (as 6.5011mm) and 7mm (as 7.0011mm).

 

[matt_isserstedt]

"Otherwise, you would need temporary access to another turning tool, at least in order to adapt the 60 teeth quadrant gear to accept the required 53 teeth gear on top of it."

Peter, respectfully, on my lathe, when running the "feed shaft", the quadrant gear is totally stationary, I checked this when cleaning under there to see about oil flow.

Unless, of course, it is a required "locking" element.

-Matt

 

[peterh5322]

Another placard, this one also containing the nominal pitch, but now also containing the absolute pitch, to four decimal places, and the percentage relative error (+ or -) to three decimal places.

 

[peterh5322]

"Peter, respectfully, on my lathe, when running the 'feed shaft', the quadrant gear is totally stationary, I checked this when cleaning under there to see about oil flow."

You are quite correct.

The 10EE has completely independent thread chasing and feed rod gear boxes.

If you are performing TFB (turning, facing and boring) operations, only, the threading gearbox, which employs the gear train from the end gear, through the quadrant gear, to the box gear, is not active at all. Therefore, you may indeed remove the quadrant gear for modification.

(Regrettably, I have spent too many years on lesser machines ... those in which the lead screw and the feed rod were in common ... and my previous comment was written from that perspective).

Currently, my only I-m lathe is a Logan, and it has this lead screw/feed rod limitation.

One of my motivations for developing a simple, affordable metric conversion for the 10EE was to allow my "Lion of Sidney" to work in millimeters. At least insofar as thread chasing is concerned.

 

[peterh5322]

Camera-ready art of the revised placard is Here .

 

[peterh5322]

Recent price quotations for Boston Gear Works 16 DP 14-1/2 PA change gears are as follows:

60 T (cast iron) ... GB60B ... $37.61 (Quadrant)

53 T (cast iron) ... GB53B ... $35.06 (Transposer)

24 T (steel) ... GB24 ... $19.70
27 T (steel) ... GB27 ... $20.20
30 T (steel) ... GB30 ... $20.20
33 T (steel) ... GB33 ... $23.66 *
34 T (steel) ... GB34 ... $23.66 **
36 T (steel) ... GB36 ... $24.41
38 T (steel) ... GB38 ... $25.06 ***
39 T (steel) ... GB39 ... $25.06 ****
42 T (cast iron) ... GB42B ... $32.76

* Required only for 5.5mm

** Required only for 0.45mm (and for non-standard 0.9mm)

*** Required only for 0.35 and 0.7mm

**** Required only for non-standard 6.5mm (and for non-standard 3.25mm)

 

[Bodgit]

Peter, This work is awesome. You've once again outdone us all! Now who will be the first to try it.
Steve

 

[rimcanyon]

Some additional improvements are possible.

If the the 60 tooth gear drives the stud gear directly (no transpose), several of the "problem" ratios in the 60/53 solution can be bettered:

.3, .4, .45, .6, and .8 drop to an error of .046 with a 34 tooth stud gear, and with no additional cost or changes to the assembly.

0.299861111111111 - 60/60, 34, err: -0.046296296296285, ratio: 96
0.399814814814815 - 60/60, 34, err: -0.0462962962963082, ratio: 72
0.449791666666667 - 60/60, 34, err: -0.0462962962963035, ratio: 64
0.599722222222222 - 60/60, 34, err: -0.046296296296285, ratio: 48
0.79962962962963 - 60/60, 34, err: -0.0462962962963082, ratio: 36

There are some errors in the table:

0.250041017227235 - 53/60, 24, err: 0.0164068908941717, ratio: 92
0.449292452830189 - 53/60, 30, err: -0.157232704402525, ratio: 64

And some additions (duplicate ways to get a pitch, possibly not the preferred method, but good to have in the chart):
3.5005742411813 - 53/60, 21, err: 0.0164068908941622, ratio: 5.75
1.75028712059065 - 53/60, 21, err: 0.0164068908941622, ratio: 11.5

-Dave

 

[peterh5322]

"Some additional improvements are possible."

Excellent observations, Dave.

 

[Zap921]

I'll try here first before making a new post. Does anyone have a copy of Peter's placard that he made? The links are no longer working and I was looking into converting my 68 square dial to cut metric when needed. Also if anyone has followed this path please let me know how that went.

Thanks, Nick

 

[Zap921]

These are the main ones needed for the most popular metric thread pitches. I sent Boston Gear Works an email for a quote but haven't heard back yet. Also thought about 3D printing these as an option. Looks very affordable the way Peter figured it out with a small margin of error.

Posted under wrong thread / newer one here:
Metric Placard for Square Dial: