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10ee forward and reverse question (Modular + ELSR)

Mr_CNC_guy

Aluminum
Joined
Jul 29, 2018
Location
New England
I have a 1961 10ee module drive with ELSR. It sort of works. I can run
the spindle speed up and down in both forward and reverse. However not
everything is working right. The forward/reverse lever on the apron can
only make the spindle run in one direction. I can change the direction
by rotating the ELSR knob. The ELSR cannot work with this problem.

Something is wrong and I am going through the wiring. First up, the
big contactors in the relay panel seem to be backwards. When the one
in the upper right (the diagram calles it the reverse relay) is closed
the spindle runs in the forward direction, that is counter-clockwise viewed
from the tailstock.

When I move the ELSR knob to "left thread" the other contactor closes
(that the drawing calls the forward relay) and the spindle runs
in reverse.

It seems that something is backwards, but what?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

thermite

Diamond
I have a 1961 10ee module drive with ELSR. It sort of works. I can run
the spindle speed up and down in both forward and reverse. However not
everything is working right. The forward/reverse lever on the apron can
only make the spindle run in one direction. I can change the direction
by rotating the ELSR knob. The ELSR cannot work with this problem.

Something is wrong and I am going through the wiring. First up, the
big contactors in the relay panel seem to be backwards. When the one
in the upper right (the diagram calles it the reverse relay) is closed
the spindle runs in the forward direction, that is counter-clockwise viewed
from the tailstock.

When I move the ELSR knob to "left thread" the other contactor closes
(that the drawing calls the forward relay) and the spindle runs
in reverse.

It seems that something is backwards, but what?

Possible that more than one thing is bass-ackwards.

All 10EE are "old enough" that more than a few have been field-modified in the wire so that what HAD been the reverse contactor - not as often used under load - was swapped with a more badly worn "Forward" contactor.

Same again, the lighter-duty control 'Microswitches", same reason. Differential wear and need of a "JF get it running at no new spend" shop-floor fix sometime back in its history..

You will need to trace "as it is NOW" wiring vs the OEM schematics to see if your machine has been modified "or whatever" vs OEM as-built.

Deep read of contributions - "right here, on PM"- from others who have gone before you are also essential for preparation.

ELSR isn't always 100% "obvious" as to how you might think it should work.

No "rocket insemination" to it. Just tedious. You can fix it.
 

Mr_CNC_guy

Aluminum
Joined
Jul 29, 2018
Location
New England
There were definitely "People" in there. The wires in the motor connection
box were just wrapped toghther and taped, no screws or wirenuts. Stranded
wire wrapped around single strand wire does not make a good long lasting connection.
However, it did run but with the problem that I described.
 

Colt45

Hot Rolled
Joined
Nov 27, 2004
Location
SLC, UT
It is a lot of work, but well worth the effort to get the electrical print from Monarch for your exact machine, then go through and systematically check every wire and connection.
Even under the best of circumstances, the machine is over 50 years old- wires crack, connections come loose, stuff wears out. As mentioned above, "other people" may have been in there "fixing things".

Saves lots of headaches down the road, once you get it properly sorted and tuned, the 10EE requires very minimal and simple maintenance to keep running.
 
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Mr_CNC_guy

Aluminum
Joined
Jul 29, 2018
Location
New England
I have been copying the information from the blueprints that are glued
to the inside of the two doors. I assume that they are correct for
my machine. They are in good shape, but hard to get a good photograph.

I have been adjusting the microswitches that are in the ELSR dousing.
The lower two are easy. They are for forward and reverse. The top
one is giving me trouble. The amount of movement of the lever that
presses on the switch has just barely enough range of motion to actuate
the switch. Adjusted one way and the switch may not open. Adjusted
the other way and the switch may not close. There is no adjustment
where the switch will work reliably.
 

thermite

Diamond
There were definitely "People" in there. The wires in the motor connection
box were just wrapped toghther and taped, no screws or wirenuts. Stranded
wire wrapped around single strand wire does not make a good long lasting connection.
However, it did run but with the problem that I described.

God smiles on drunks, fools, and ...... Bubba ... when making monkey-patches to 'lectrishiddy?

Western Union splice - Wikipedia


"Disclosure": Cable & Wireless pensioner..

I actually prefer to chop-off a section of these with anywhere from one to "many" ...as needs of the moment require.

Eurostrips - Terminal Strips

Not a fan of wired nuts - other than as an effective interrogation tool.

:)
 

Mr_CNC_guy

Aluminum
Joined
Jul 29, 2018
Location
New England
I fixed my ELSR control lever problem. The problem was that the lever could not move
far enough to open and close the microswitches properly. Over the years the linkage
from the lever to the switches had worn too much. The hard stop on the lever prevented
it from moving far enough to operate the switches.

After taking the ELSR mechanism all apart I found the stop and it is adjustable but it
is not easy to get to.

DSC02685.jpg

The hard stop is the screw on the bottom of the ELSR housing on the apron. It looks like
a drain plug, but it is not. It engages the gear that rides on the keyed shaft. The
gear has a flat cut into it and that is where the hard stop operates.

DSC02684.jpg

The stop is locked in place by a set screw that is on the back side of the ELSR apron
housing. You can see the hole for the set screw. It is partially covered by the
plate on the back.

DSC02680.jpg

You cannot get to the set screw without taking it all apart. I milled a slot
that allows me to adjust the stop with everything assembled.

DSC02681.jpg

Since you cannot make this adjustment while everything is assembled, the factory
must have made this adjustment on a jig. As the ELSR wore over time you would
need to move the lever a litle further up and down. My 10ee would work in the
lever down position but not in the lever up position.

I suspect that the 10ee's that need to have the lever juggled a little to work
properly have the same problem that I had.

Hope this helps.
 








 
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