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10EE Headstock Lubrication

Torquin

Aluminum
Joined
Nov 17, 2014
Location
Powhatan, Va.
I purchased a 10EE last year and just got it into the shop so I can start going through it. Had to sell my 12CK so I would have room for the 10EE. Anyway, I believe, from the SN on the bed, EE42451, that it is a 1956 model. The information plate is MIA on this lathe. It has been changed over to some kind of variable speed drive system that I have not yet identified. The drawer under the bed is practically empty at this point, and there are two extra electrical boxes on the back along with a control box with switches and a rheostat on the front. I will be asking questions about this lathe if I cannot find the answers in the stickies.
My first questions are about the lubrication in the head stock. I see two oil level windows on it, one one the left and one on the right. The one on the left has no oil in it, suggesting I need to add oil.
1. Do these head stocks have two separate oiling areas in them?
2. What kind of modern-day oil should be used in either of the head stock reservoirs?

Another question, about the belt drive. I see that it has one idler for the drive belt, on the right side, and on mine it is slid in as far as possible. The belt is reasonably tight, but could be tighter. Upon opening the covers, I found that someone had wrapped several layers of duct tape on the idler puller, perhaps to make it a little larger to make the belt tighter, but I do not know. The tape was coming off the pulley and making a lot of noise as it flapped around in there so I removed all of the tape from the pulley. Is this a situation where I should get a new belt, of is there anything else I should look into before that?

Thanks,
Chris
 

rke[pler

Diamond
Joined
Feb 19, 2002
Location
Peralta, NM USA
There should be 3 oil sights on the headstock, the outer 2 are for the front and rear bearings and the center oils the headstock gears via splash. All should take something like a Mobil DTE 24 oil (Vactra Light is the original spec). I'd advise changing the oils and cleaning the sights so you have a clear view of everything going forward.

There should be 2 idlers. Here's a pic of my 1956:

10ee_belts.jpg


If you're missing the left one it might be fairly easily replaced, the right one has more structure supporting it.
 

Torquin

Aluminum
Joined
Nov 17, 2014
Location
Powhatan, Va.
I suppose I am missing the brackets and all. See pics.
So, do I have to fill the end reservoirs by those little tiny holes on each end?
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Thanks,
Chris
 

Torquin

Aluminum
Joined
Nov 17, 2014
Location
Powhatan, Va.
What oil is used in the motor gear box? It seems like that needs oil also. I want to get to using this lathe but need to get through everything to make sure it is maintained properly.
Come to think of it, can you list all of the modern oils to be used in the various places on this lathe? Perhaps that would deserve a sticky.

Thanks,
Chris
 

Don's Engine

Aluminum
Joined
May 29, 2020
The gear box is supposed to take DTE 32 Med/Heavy. Mine is so worn that I just use 75/90 gear oil. The threading gear box also uses DTE32 Med/Heavy. The three top chambers use DTE24 light. You cant see the middle chamber due to that speed control sitting in front of it. Yes you fill the end bearings through the little plug holes and the middle section through the top plug. Ide do as rke said and get those filler windows out and cleaned up. You definitely want that spindle section, all three points properly filled. Vactra 2 for the apron and your good. Don
 

rke[pler

Diamond
Joined
Feb 19, 2002
Location
Peralta, NM USA
I suppose I am missing the brackets and all. See pics.

Yup. Here's mine:

10ee_left_idler.jpg

So, do I have to fill the end reservoirs by those little tiny holes on each end?

Yes, it's about 25-30 squirts from one of my oil cans so not too bad. The central sump may be filled from the knob in the center of the top, sight glass is below the added control box in your first image.

The gear boxes take Mobil Vactra Heavy Medium (gear box below the headstock and the reduction gearbox on the motor output). The apron sump should have Vactra #2 way oil, I also use it for the tailstock quill and way sump. It'd be a good idea to drop the apron sump and pull the oil pump in it for new filter felt and a general checkup, it lubricates a lot of stuff.
 

rke[pler

Diamond
Joined
Feb 19, 2002
Location
Peralta, NM USA
The gear box is supposed to take DTE 32 Med/Heavy. Mine is so worn that I just use 75/90 gear oil. The threading gear box also uses DTE32 Med/Heavy. The three top chambers use DTE24 light. You cant see the middle chamber due to that speed control sitting in front of it. Yes you fill the end bearings through the little plug holes and the middle section through the top plug. Ide do as rke said and get those filler windows out and cleaned up. You definitely want that spindle section, all three points properly filled. Vactra 2 for the apron and your good. Don

If you're really using 75/90 gear oil you've got something very heavy in there. Mobil DTE Medium is ISO 46, a 75/90 gear oil would be something near an ISO 100. ( http://www.golftechs.us/Reference/viscross.pdf ) If it's not being run long enough to get really warm you might want to go to a lighter grade oil.
 

rke[pler

Diamond
Joined
Feb 19, 2002
Location
Peralta, NM USA
I forgot to mention - you're missing the end gear cover as well. Might want to get a replacement, I recall someone selling parts of a '57 that would likely have that as well as the missing idler.

Take some more pictures so we can see the drive and other features.
 

Don's Engine

Aluminum
Joined
May 29, 2020
When I tore the gear box down, the gears were seriously worn. had to hand massage them back and debur them with a file by hand. I used all sealed bearings when I put it back together, so the only real need for oil is when its in back gear, and again, I've got serious wear so the heavier oil keeps it quiet. I've tried both, and the gear oil is better in this ap. In direct drive its locked through, so there's no gear engagement issue. And here in Florida, the oils always warmed up... yechhhh... Don
 

Torquin

Aluminum
Joined
Nov 17, 2014
Location
Powhatan, Va.
Here are a few more pics.

20220505_17584133.jpg

20220505_17585133.jpg

20220505_17585433.jpg

I have not yet gotten to opening the box on the back where the main electrical seems to be. This is a slow process, as I get time.
Amazon had the DTE24. I will be here tomorrow. I believe I already have the Vactra #2, as I use it for the BP.

Thanks,
Chris
 

thermite

Diamond
Joined
Sep 21, 2011
Location
Sol, Terra
Here are a few more pics.

View attachment 348750

View attachment 348751

View attachment 348752

I have not yet gotten to opening the box on the back where the main electrical seems to be. This is a slow process, as I get time.
Amazon had the DTE24. I will be here tomorrow. I believe I already have the Vactra #2, as I use it for the BP.

Thanks,
Chris

A PAIR of new "A" section Vee belts (Monarch stocks them, but not-only) will be enough tighter that one idler and not even very much engagement should work. OEM motors were carefully shim-stacked for best belt alignment.

One of the things that "happens" over time is that the "rubber" mounts under the motor mounting plate perish and drop the plate a skosh.

Byproduct is the recommended as-built belt size ends up tight with NO idler engagement, whilst brand-new...

but.. those mounts should be replaced, anyway, because..:

The idlers are there as much to prevent resonant vibration in the unusually long free span as they are to apply tension.

With the load distributed over two belts, each are working at under half their maximum power transfer rating for the pulley size 'wrap'. Accordingly, they run very smoothly, stretch very, very slowly, and last a VERY long time compared to most Vee belt rigs.

IOW.. more likely to rot to death before they die from wear. So a new pair can easily last you 10 or 20 years, read: "cheaper in the long run that running with but one.."

:)

Photos of the MOTOR would be useful. A 'selfie stick' can get a camera in there, even catch a foto of the motor dataplate ... if it still has one.

You have a/the OEM gearbox, but there is a hint it may not be mounted to an OEM motor.

Determining what the motor is will go a long way towards determining what the mystery power & control rig is likely to be.

WHATEVER it is, fair certain several folks here have experience with it, so you'll get plenty of assistance.

Meanwhile, read and read.. and read more..

Everything to do with a 10EE has been covered, "right here, on PM" and far more than 'just the one time'.

:)
 

beckerkumm

Hot Rolled
Joined
Aug 5, 2014
Location
Wisconsin Rapids WI
Are your 10EE pulleys proprietary with the wider 1/2" or so distance between the belts ? My CVA is like that and I am looking to replace with 10EE ones but want to be sure the distance between is the same or I need both top and bottom. DAve
 

Torquin

Aluminum
Joined
Nov 17, 2014
Location
Powhatan, Va.
I will get more pics after work. Let me know if you want more than what you have already mentioned, about the motor and pulleys.

Thanks,
Chris
 

Torquin

Aluminum
Joined
Nov 17, 2014
Location
Powhatan, Va.
Here are the requested pics. I have a single belt pulley on the motor.

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20220506_16381433.jpg

20220506_16382033.jpg

Thanks,
Chris
 

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thermite

Diamond
Joined
Sep 21, 2011
Location
Sol, Terra
Here are the requested pics. I have a single belt pulley on the motor.

View attachment 348836

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View attachment 348839

Thanks,
Chris

Somebody "ran what they had".... or could afford/lay-hands-on for their budget ..

"SWAG" on the shortcomings:

A) Re-purposed 'blower duty' DC motor off an unrelated application. Blower probably ain't there any longer. Not a show-stopper. 10EE can only run max of 20" in a single pass.. so "Continuous Duty" is not needed.. the motor can cool a skosh on each of the tool backhaul traverses.

The 3 HP is dataplated @ 1750 RPM, so nominal Torque calculates to 9 ft/lb. That hurts!

- For comparison:

- the MG-era Reliance nominal 230 VDC 3 HP "large frame" @ 690 RPM = 22.8 ft/lb. And then... they made available around 245-265 VDC for improved regulation under load when in Field Weakened range.

"From memory.." the 5 HP GE KinaMatic & Louis-Allis motors Monarch used later were also ~ 230 VDC & rated 5 HP, but @ 1150 RPM = 22.8 Ft/lb... The "gain" was to move the RPM up, retain the Torque, for early-days Carbide, quite often 'negative rake', ergo in need of both higher RPM AND high power.


B) Motor probably could not be set far enough to the rear, so the pulley used ONE belt, offset to the off-hand groove on the spindle to get a half-power fit. One 'A" section belt is good for about 5 HP with OEM diameters & wrap. Good enough for the anemic motor's (relatively) low torque budget.

Even so, it is about equal to a FIVE HP AC motor on a VFD, so ... don't throw hammers at it.. yet..

:)

C) Packaged DC drive looks to be a basic thyristor-class unit.. comparable to an early-days Boston-Gear ("RatioTrol' were they?) or Baldor.. near-as-dammit a KB-Penta 'house branded'.. 'coz some WERE exactly that - "bought in" and badge-engineered for mKB, Minarik, Danfoss-Graham, Delta, and a host of others.

Very few of the "Big Name" motor-makers actually built their own electronics. They did not HAVE to do. In it's "prime", Reliance was an Exxon property, so they could and did. As did GE. Even os, many drives were bought-in for the lwoer power end of their ranges.

I'd expect the drive to have been configured for 240 VAC 1-P input, supporting a max of 180 VDC out to the nominal 120 VDC motor, and commissioned to max at mebbe 140 VDC, if-even.

It is probably short on max current as well. The only KB DC Drive I own that can handle 25A is a KBRG-255, and it is way newer than your one, also deeper (big heat sink..) .

What you have should 'run', but..

.. as it sits? It is akin to an overly heavy Hardinge "collet runner" or an SB ten! Massive chassis. Not much power.

OK for small diameters and polishing, but limited to about half-power rations as to torque for larger, slower, and/or heavier-turning working that any OEM (or GOOD conversion) handles with no strain atall.

Some digging for dataplates on the DC Drive, and fotos of the innards, 'we' can do better at ID'ing it and reduce the guesswork?
 
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Torquin

Aluminum
Joined
Nov 17, 2014
Location
Powhatan, Va.
For those asking about the control unit. It is a Reliance Min Pak VS drive. See pics below. I have found I can run it on single phase 220, and changed the plug to do so. Much more convenient.
20220510_165309.jpg20220510_165324.jpg
Thanks,
Chris
 








 
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