10ee kinamatic 5hp brush and spring source?

[Brandenberger]

Hi,

I have 1962 10ee, square dial modular with the GE kinamatic motor.

I have the motor out now.

It is a GE 5CD218 type, original to the machine I’m sure, with two brushes.

The commutator was dark but not too worn to my eye, I stoned it lightly by hand.

One of the two brushes makes a squeaking noise as the motor is turned, the other is quiet. The brushes are approx 1” long now.

Pictures before and after stoning:




I also wrapped the commutator in 400grit sandpaper and sanded the brushes, but one still squeaks. If I manually push that spring it quiets down, so I’m suspecting I just need a new spring there.

I’ve asked monarch for pricing on brushes and springs (2 needed), wonder if anyone else has a source they’ve used recently for this motor, particularly for the springs?

Thanks,
Phil

 

[Mr_CNC_guy]

If your springs look OK and feel good, I would not worry about them. Sometimes brushes squeak, that is just the way it is. If they are 1 inch long, then they are not worn out. I think that you are good to go.

 

[Brandenberger]

Thanks for the feedback, I exchanged the brush springs and did a bit more fine sanding of the brushes themselves. They quieted down a bit more. Put back into the machine and run nicely.

Which is good-- I heard back from Terrie at Monarch that they can no longer supply the brushes and springs for this motor, so other suppliers would need to be found if I'd had to replace them.

 

[Cal Haines]

AFIK, Monarch sources their brushes from Helwig Carbon. Give them a call. If they don't have the right brush, they may have one that you can modify to fit.

 

[KT_NorCal]

Hi,

I have 1962 10ee, square dial modular with the GE kinamatic motor.

I have the motor out now.

It is a GE 5CD218 type, original to the machine I’m sure, with two brushes.

The commutator was dark but not too worn to my eye, I stoned it lightly by hand.

One of the two brushes makes a squeaking noise as the motor is turned, the other is quiet. The brushes are approx 1” long now.

Pictures before and after stoning:

View attachment 388735
View attachment 388736

I also wrapped the commutator in 400grit sandpaper and sanded the brushes, but one still squeaks. If I manually push that spring it quiets down, so I’m suspecting I just need a new spring there.

I’ve asked monarch for pricing on brushes and springs (2 needed), wonder if anyone else has a source they’ve used recently for this motor, particularly for the springs?

Thanks,
Phil

Re the squeaky spring.... Sometimes the commutators on motors can wear out of round and what you may be hearing is the brush "pistoning" against the commutator. When I have motors stripped down I often just skim the commutator even if it looks decent for this reason... Probably a bit harder to do when we are talking about the motor that actually drives your lathe though!

 

[rakort]

Nice work on the comm clean up and sounds like you seated the brushes as well. That is what it needed!

Brian

 

[Brandenberger]

Thanks it does run pretty nicely now! Much quieter than before.

Only problem left is field weakening doesn’t seem to work, max speed is ~1500rpm. I’ll have to figure out why that is! Machine originally shipped as 4000rpm as per the purchase sheet.

 

[rke[pler]

It sounds like the field weakening isn't functioning. I'd suspect the field acceleration relay. Open the front panel and look for the relay, it might be the one on the lower right. This relay listens to the current on the motor and gives you full field when the current is high. It might be maladjusted or stuck. I believe it's a normally open relay so slipping an insulator between the open contacts might restore function for testing but you'll have to start in a low speed.

 

[Brandenberger]

Did some testing today, and in particular measured the DC field voltage at various speeds.

The field weakening is functioning somewhat… at base speed or lower the field is ~120vdc, and at the max achievable speed it reduces to about ~51v, but at that point the FA relay is opening and closing and the rpm oscillates between 2000rpm and about 1800rpm. Turning the speed pot further doesn’t increase speed (I need to confirm the high speed pot is giving me full range, I think it is but not sure).

I checked the tach accuracy with a laser tach and it seems the monarch headstock tach is pretty accurate.

I have yet to pull the module as one test, and also to see whether the max speed pot is causing issues…

 

[rke[pler]

Did some testing today, and in particular measured the DC field voltage at various speeds.

The field weakening is functioning somewhat… at base speed or lower the field is ~120vdc, and at the max achievable speed it reduces to about ~51v, but at that point the FA relay is opening and closing and the rpm oscillates between 2000rpm and about 1800rpm. Turning the speed pot further doesn’t increase speed (I need to confirm the high speed pot is giving me full range, I think it is but not sure).

I checked the tach accuracy with a laser tach and it seems the monarch headstock tach is pretty accurate.

I have yet to pull the module as one test, and also to see whether the max speed pot is causing issues…

The FA relay should not be doing that. Either the relay is misadjusted, the resistor before the coil is bad, or the armature is drawing too much current.

 

[Brandenberger]

The FA relay should not be doing that. Either the relay is misadjusted, the resistor before the coil is bad, or the armature is drawing too much current.

To close out this thread-- adjusted the FA relay spring, tightened it incrementally then checking stable top speed. The machine now gets to 4000rpm.

 

[rke[pler]

Check the armature current at 2000 and 4000 rpm.

Front bearing looks a little low? Running, so that'll pull the sight glass down some but...

 

[jbacc]

Good morning, All,

I am the proud new owner of the Monarch 10EE that is the original subject of this thread. After a few adjustments and replacement of the C3J power tube, she runs great. I touched base with Rabler via PM because he has what appears to be the same motor in his 10EE a 5hp GE Kinamatic DC Motor. He was able to purchase replacement motor brushes from Monarch but when I spoke to Terrie at Monarch, she advised that they no longer carry brushes for that motor due to it's age and considered obsolete.

So, in one of the posts, Cal advised that Helwig Carbon supplied those brushes to Monarch. I emailed them and they sent me the PDF below asking me to confirm the sizes in the PDF, my company name and how many pieces I want. Before I figure that part out, I am hoping someone might be able to confirm that what the PDF has listed is the correct size brushes for my 1962, GE 5hp Kinamatic DC motor?

Thanks in advance to any and all for your insight, advice, comments etc., I appreciate it.

Joe

 

[Brandenberger]

Joe,
When I had the motor and brushes out, they were almost 1" long still, so only a bit more than 1/4" worn off. So always good to have spares, but the current brushes didn't seem to be in need of replacement.

-Phil

 

[jbacc]

Joe,
When I had the motor and brushes out, they were almost 1" long still, so only a bit more than 1/4" worn off. So always good to have spares, but the current brushes didn't seem to be in need of replacement.

-Phil

Hi Phil, thanks so much for sharing that with me. These are the things I obsess over...LOL. The brushes will probably never need replacement in my lifetime (I'm 63) but I endeavor to have a spare set of brushes. The lathe is great, I appreciate all the work you did to it prior to passing it on to me.

Stay well,

Joe

 

[rabler]

Haven't had a chance to measure, but here's a picture of worn out vs new.

 

[jbacc]

Haven't had a chance to measure, but here's a picture of worn out vs new.
View attachment 404544

Wow, thanks so much for posting this. Phil, the previous owner shared some comforting information about the brushes but as I posted above, I'd like to have an extra set just in case. The challenge is to confirm that the PDF that Helwig sent with the dimensions are the correct brushes.

Thanks again,

Joe

 

[rimcanyon]

A friend recently offered me the brush plate for a GE 5HP motor, so if it would help I would be happy to pass the favor on and send them your way. Here is a photo of the motor (just for reference, since I have no idea if it is a Kinematic) and a couple of the brush plate. Send me a PM if it would be useful. I don't actually have the brush plate yet, but it is being shipped.

 

[Andy FitzGibbon]

I'll get measurements of my 1970 Kinematic brushes later today. I'd be interested in having a spare set as well, if you need to meet a quantity to order from Helwig.

 

[jbacc]

I'll get measurements of my 1970 Kinematic brushes later today. I'd be interested in having a spare set as well, if you need to meet a quantity to order from Helwig.

Thanks, looking at the quote for the brushes identified in the PDF I posted yesterday, they are $14.70 a brush x 2 = $29.40 a set plus shipping. I believe the minimum order is $50.00 so I was quoted a price for 4 brushes.