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10EE Square Dial - Stopped Oiling

Jim McIntyre

Hot Rolled
Joined
Jul 16, 2006
Location
Indiana
My 1962 square dial seems to have abruptly stopped oiling. I ran the feed rod at about 100 rpm for 15 minutes - no oil seen on the main ways or around the cross slide. I also stuck a piece of cardboard in the chip pan, and there were no errant oil drops on it.

So, where to start ? - I see a ton of apron overhaul threads. Is it possible to pull the oil pump out with the apron in-place?
 

Cal Haines

Diamond
Joined
Sep 19, 2002
Location
Tucson, AZ
My 1962 square dial seems to have abruptly stopped oiling. I ran the feed rod at about 100 rpm for 15 minutes - no oil seen on the main ways or around the cross slide. I also stuck a piece of cardboard in the chip pan, and there were no errant oil drops on it.

So, where to start ? - I see a ton of apron overhaul threads. Is it possible to pull the oil pump out with the apron in-place?
Unlike round-dials, square-dials don't need to have the carriage moving in order for the apron pump to operate. The feed-rod needs to be turning and the feed direction plunger needs to be pushed in or pulled out. If it's in the center, threading position, the pump cams aren't operated unless the carriage is moving. More information here:
 

Jim McIntyre

Hot Rolled
Joined
Jul 16, 2006
Location
Indiana
Thanks Cal. No joy. I ran the feed-rod at about 100 rpm, engaged the feed plunger, and don't see any oil along the cross slide ways or on the main ways. I let it run for 1 hour...

Grr..
 

Cal Haines

Diamond
Joined
Sep 19, 2002
Location
Tucson, AZ
There's a test port on the manifold under the saddle. If you can hook up a pressure gauge, you should see 15 PSI there.

The pump is in the bottom of the apron. There's a rectangular cover, held on with 6 or 8 SHCS's that allows access to the pump. The pump should be held on with 4 smaller SHCS's. The output fitting is on the top. I've never tried to take one off without removing the apron, but you can give it a go.
 

CarbideTip

Aluminum
Joined
Sep 21, 2016
Location
Woking, Surrey, UK.
If you've had the machine a while, and never taken the cover off the bottom of the apron, now would be a good time to do it. As Cal says you can access the pump which has filters on it's inlet, but the sump can accumulate sludge (and coolant !) which should be cleaned out from time to time. If there's oil coming out of the test point Cal mentioned the metering valves may be clogged. These are what the 5 pipes are connected to in your picture.
 

Brandenberger

Cast Iron
Joined
Sep 19, 2017
And when I recently reinstalled everything the pump would not self-prime, but once primed on the bench it worked fine upon installation. There are many other threads on PM recommending this too.
 

Cal Haines

Diamond
Joined
Sep 19, 2002
Location
Tucson, AZ
I should mention my 1962 EE square dial seems to drive the pump from an eccentric on the handwheel shaft, so I don’t believe it would pump unless the carriage is moving.
You are mistaken, the square-dial pump WILL operate without the carriage moving. If you look at parts sheet 147, you will see that that square-dial pump has two cam-followers, sort of a teeter-totter affair. As explained in the link that I posted, one arm of the cam follower is driven by the hand-wheel shaft. The other arm is driven by an eccentric on the adjacent shaft, the longitudinal feed shaft. The longitudinal feed shaft rotates when the feed rod is turning and the feed-direction plunger is NOT in the middle (threading) position. (Round-dial pumps only have one cam-follower, operated by the hand-wheel shaft, and only pump when the carriage is moving.) If you don't believe me, block up the apron and take the saddle off, then run the feed rod with feed/thread select plunger all the way in or out.
 

Brandenberger

Cast Iron
Joined
Sep 19, 2017
What did you have to do to prime it?

Remove oil sump, remove pump (4 screws and then one compression fitting). To prime (having made sure the filter is acceptable, replace if not), I submerged the whole filtered inlet into a pail of the appropriate oil and pumped a few times, until the tube spurts oil.

And to Cal, thanks for the correction, I missed the 2nd follower on sheet 147.
 
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Brandenberger

Cast Iron
Joined
Sep 19, 2017
Do you think that can that be done with the apron still on the lathe?

Yes, very likely. If you drop the oil sump you do need to replace / make a gasket / use a gasket replacer.

If you do remove the test port on the underside of the saddle, you could probably determine whether the pump is pumping without having to remove the oil sump and pump (if you get pressure and/or a reasonable flow of oil). If you don’t get flow there, you would need to investigate the pump and/or seal between apron and saddle.

As has been pointed out, your oil sump is probably full of sludge so it would be good to remove and clean it, whether that is your immediate problem? Unclear.
 

rimcanyon

Diamond
Joined
Sep 28, 2002
Location
Salinas, CA USA
Do some more diagnostics first. Are you getting way oil dripping down the back side of the apron? If not, there is no reason to remove the test port…

Is your sight glass clean on the apron? If not, remove it, clean it and reinstall.

The pump itself is not likely to fail, and the pump filters are not likely to block flow *unless* your apron is full of crud or the lathe was sitting outside a few years and water got in and you have a congealed mess in there. Most likely to fail are the check valves on the pump and the pressure regulator. If you are not seeing oil on the back side of the apron, then the most likely point of failure is the check valves, because the pressure regulator works by venting excess pressure into the gravity feed sump that feeds the half nuts and feed clutch lubrication lines.

You can remove the pump without removing the apron, but its a lot easier if you remove the apron, if you have never done it before…
 

Jim McIntyre

Hot Rolled
Joined
Jul 16, 2006
Location
Indiana
...because the pressure regulator works by venting excess pressure into the gravity feed sump that feeds the half nuts...

Huh - That's interesting. During the long run when I tried to see oiling activity on the ways, it did seem the lead screw was getting lots of oil. More than I've noticed before... I wasn't really looking for oil on the back side of the apron - are you saying that if I see that, it's evidence of the check valve spilling oil out?

The sump ought to be clean - I'm the second owner, having got this direct from the DoD site that bought it from the local machinery dealer. It never sat outside, as far as I can tell. The sight glass is clean enough that I know the sump has the proper level of oil in it.
 








 
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