10EE thirteen shades of OIL

[dkmc]

So if some clueless fool was careless enough to use AW32 or AW46 hydraulic oil inside and all over a 10EE what would be the end catastrophe? Bearing failure? Paint peel? Shunned on the worlds biggest online machining forum? I know the topic has been discussed in detail, but have the results of the -wrong- oil been identified and failure examples shown?

 

[TheOldCar]

Maybe a little on the thin side for the back gear, but I bet it hasn't damaged a thing!

 

[rimcanyon]

You should be just fine. I have used DTE oil in my 10EE for years.

 

[dkmc]

You should be just fine. I have used DTE oil in my 10EE for years.

Which weight/ flavor?

 

[rimcanyon]

DTE 24 for the headstock/spindle. DTE Heavy Medium for gearbox.

 

[dkmc]

DTE 24 for the headstock/spindle. DTE Heavy Medium for gearbox.

LOL Did you even read the first sentence in post 1 ?

 

[Cal Haines]

Get a big 'ol drum. Use it in your car's engine and automatic transmission too.

 

[Glug]

The most important thing is to add Bardahl. Add it to your oil. Add it to your 10ee.

 

[dkmc]

Of course it's a hypothetical question. NO 10EE lathes have been harmed. What would happen?
And I'd like to know if bearings or gears have been destroyed because someone
HAS used incorrect oils. What is the importance of -different- oils in head stock and bearings?
Would DTE 24 ruin the head stock bearings. If this has been hashed out previously, point me to
the thread as I haven't found such info in searching.

 

[Cal Haines]

Of course it's a hypothetical question. NO 10EE lathes have been harmed. ...

And you know that how, exactly?

10EEs show up with bad spindle bearings from time to time. I bet lubrication issues played a part in each and every case. If you want to run Johnson's Baby Oil or Astroglide in your headstock, be my guest. Knowing what a set of spindle bearings costs, I'll stick with DTE Light, thank you.

 

[rimcanyon]

LOL Did you even read the first sentence in post 1 ?

Did you? DTE24 has a kinematic viscosity of 31.5 and it is a hydraulic oil.

 

[dkmc]

Did you? DTE24 has a kinematic viscosity of 31.5 and it is a hydraulic oil.

The question is one type of oil one weight, you listed 2.

And you know that how, exactly?

10EEs show up with bad spindle bearings from time to time. I bet lubrication issues played a part in each and every case. If you want to run Johnson's Baby Oil or Astroglide in your headstock, be my guest. Knowing what a set of spindle bearings costs, I'll stick with DTE Light, thank you.

OK, can you list off some other silly alternatives?
Like I said, I didn't put the 'wrong' oil in any machine. It's just a hypothetical question.
"relax"

 

[beckerkumm]

The question seems to have two parts. Will a hydraulic oil cause spindle or bearing damage on a lathe vs machine oil, and what impact does viscosity have on causing the same damage? Have i got that right?

The hydraulic vs circulating differences are above my pay grade but the reading I've done doesn't say much about the potential damage that could occur and what type of use would be necessary to cause it. There doesn't appear to be a benefit of Hydraulic over circulating unless you have a lot of that type of oil and not long enough to live to worry about the difference - probably most of us. Circulating oil seems to be the first choice though.

Viscosity would seem to be more important to get right. Monarch spec'd a DTE light weight for it's early oil bath spindle bearings while CVA spec'd medium for the same spindle design. The slightly higher top speed of the Monarch might be the reason. I know overfilling the reservoir on an oil bath bearing is something to avoid, regardless of oil weight. My fear in changing viscosity from recommendation is the pump and valve system that are designed to deliver a specified amount of oil through what seems like miles of tubing and different sized orofices. In my world the oiling systems on machinery are problematic enough without me adding to the equation.

When I work on an old machine i pump out whatever is in it and add the DTE light, medium, or heavy, and Vactra for the ways and apron as recommended and don't think any more about it. There are enough other things that make my head explode. Dave

 

[zgoo]

Heavier oil will contain more heat, so if a headstock is getting warm drop down on the oil weight.

 

[Shiseiji]

Just my $.02 from reading many, many posts on lubrication, and my 1945 Square Dial MG manual from Monarch, a lubrication manual from Monarch allegedly appropriate for the year, the lubrication manual posted to Vintage Machinery, the 1942 round dial and 1965 square dial manuals posted there, links at the top of the forum as "Stickies." Add in way back in 1977, my aircraft powerplant instructor provided his observation that it's the improvements in lubrication that has contributed more than metallurgy to component longevity. And his beating into my head "What does the manual say?" When I was in the Army, I was known as the guy who had the manual for every thing we had in the unit. I was never sorry I had them.

The specifications have changed over the years. My 1954 square dial MG manual calls for SAE weight 10 in the spindles, SAE 20 in the headstock. Me: "Uh, no thanks, not after 71 years of lubrication improvements. The above mentioned lubrication manual specifies Vactra Lignt in the front and rear spindles and the headstock reservoir. Sounds much better than the SAE specified in my manual, and it was provided by Monarch. So no worries about the spillage into the headstock from the spindle resivours per Monarch as they also specified for the single sight glass headstock. Leadscrew end bearing? Per the lubrication manual, Mobile Vactra Heavy Medium vs the grease most find in there.

The 1965 manual, page 20 lists "Shell Hydraulic Oil 27" as well as Vactra Light. At one time or another, Monarch listed them all as acceptable. Now, well there are threads that report conversations with Monarch and they recommending the Mobile DTE machine oils, not the numbered hydraulic oils. But (behold the underlying truth), at one time Monarch did list hydraulic oil. So pick your truth. A suggestion? Why question what Monarch recommends as the most appropriate modern formulation? The DTE numbered machine lubricants. Will the other stuff work? Well at one time, yes Monarch said it would.

What I would really like to know is what is the apron "Special recommendation. See pink tipped in sheet on page 19"? No real matter, by 1965 Monarch called for Vactra #2 and seeing as it lubricates the ways, makes sense to me.

I have no doubt the argument will go on long after my death.

Ron

 

[beckerkumm]

Any idea when mobil changed their labeling and vactra changed from a spindle oil to a way oil? I believe DTE is close to the old Vactra designation but I've no idea when that change occurred. Dave

 

[Cal Haines]

...

The specifications have changed over the years. My 1954 square dial MG manual calls for SAE weight 10 in the spindles, SAE 20 in the headstock. ... The above mentioned lubrication manual specifies Vactra Lignt in the front and rear spindles and the headstock reservoir. Sounds much better than the SAE specified in my manual, and it was provided by Monarch. ...

To understand the 1954 SAE viscosity, you would need to know what SAE standard that referred to. There are various SAE viscosity standards today. For example, SAE Standard J306 Automotive Gear Lubricant grade 80W oil has an ISO viscosity of about 68. SAE Standard J300 Engine Oil Viscosity Grade 30 spans from ISO 46 to 68. I have no idea what SAE standards would have been around in 1954.

The 1965 manual, page 20 lists "Shell Hydraulic Oil 27" as well as Vactra Light. ...

Was that because Monarch had a highly qualified, full-time tribologist on staff that spent weeks or months pouring over test results, looking at additives and perhaps conducting his own tests? Or did the Shell salesman drop by one afternoon and say, "Use this, it works REAL, REAL GOOD." I'm guessing it's probably not the first option, but who knows? My experience talking to the guys at oil tech support numbers is pretty mixed, some are very knowledgeable, others are totally clueless.

In general, hydraulic systems have filters. Oils designed for use with filters have additives that suspend debris so that the filter can remove them. However, I don't believe that most hydraulic jacks have much a filter (maybe a mesh screen) and I wouldn't expect hydraulic jack oil to be designed to work with a filter. The Mobile DTE numbered series hydraulic oils are definitely designed to work with a filter. What about "Shell Hydraulic Oil 27"? Maybe, maybe not.

Call the Shell lubrication tech support number and ask if whatever replaces "Shell Hydraulic Oil 27" and ask if it's designed to work with a filter. Then ask what lubricant they list as equivalent to Mobile DTE Light.

 

[Shiseiji]

To understand the 1954 SAE viscosity, you would need to know what SAE standard that referred to. There are various SAE viscosity standards today. For example, SAE Standard J306 Automotive Gear Lubricant grade 80W oil has an ISO viscosity of about 68. SAE Standard J300 Engine Oil Viscosity Grade 30 spans from ISO 46 to 68. I have no idea what SAE standards would have been around in 1954.

Was that because Monarch had a highly qualified, full-time tribologist on staff that spent weeks or months pouring over test results, looking at additives and perhaps conducting his own tests? Or did the Shell salesman drop by one afternoon and say, "Use this, it works REAL, REAL GOOD." I'm guessing it's probably not the first option, but who knows? My experience talking to the guys at oil tech support numbers is pretty mixed, some are very knowledgeable, others are totally clueless.

In general, hydraulic systems have filters. Oils designed for use with filters have additives that suspend debris so that the filter can remove them. However, I don't believe that most hydraulic jacks have much a filter (maybe a mesh screen) and I wouldn't expect hydraulic jack oil to be designed to work with a filter. The Mobile DTE numbered series hydraulic oils are definitely designed to work with a filter. What about "Shell Hydraulic Oil 27"? Maybe, maybe not.

Call the Shell lubrication tech support number and ask if whatever replaces "Shell Hydraulic Oil 27" and ask if it's designed to work with a filter. Then ask what lubricant they list as equivalent to Mobile DTE Light.

Cal, my apologies if "A suggestion? Why question what Monarch recommends as the most appropriate modern formulation? The DTE numbered machine lubricants. " wasn't clear enough. I regret I didn't just keep my mouth shut.

I have not once in the past three years found a post where anyone posted "Monarch says use hydraulic oil." Lots of others, but no one could cite Monarch. Neither did anyone else cite the 1965 manual as I suspect few have read past all the electrical trouble shooting and maintenance to see the lubrication information is in there. Just lots of opinions. Some backed up by lots of 1st hand experience.

To the OP: The 1965 manual listed Shell hydraulic fluid as a lubricant. So the good news is that it's doubtful any damage was done. In 2023 that's no longer the recommendation. Monarch has recommended the DTE non-hydraulic products. If it was me, I'd flush the gear spindles and gear box with kerosene as recommended by Monarch in their manuals, replace it with the appropriate DTE, and not worry about it. Too many posts here where others have run DTE hydraulic and report no problems. Just not what I'd do given we have Monarch's recommendation. Free advise, probably worth what you paid for it. Use the search and see what others have said over the literal decades. Just my $.02
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I tried to pretty clearly state that while reading the manual is a good thing, when there is newer information from Monarch, I think Monarch's newer information is what should be followed. The 1965 manual was 58 years ago. I don't know much, but I do know what was accepted as truth in 1965 for lubricants should be questioned today. Anyone want the medical advice that was taken as the "truth" in 1965? Not me. IMHO, no need to debate SAE weights, ISO weights, hydraulic DTE vs Named DTE when Monarch has provided the 21st century answer.

Sorry my poor communication appeared to disagree with you. I don't. I think you are spot on, especially as you have seen these postings over the past 20 years.

Ron

 

[Cal Haines]

Any idea when mobil changed their labeling and vactra changed from a spindle oil to a way oil? I believe DTE is close to the old Vactra designation but I've no idea when that change occurred. Dave

The change seems to have happened about 20 years ago. I have a data sheet that I printed in 2003 for the "Mobil Vactra Oil Names Series", described as "general purpose oils", and includes "Mobil Vactra Oil Light" and "Mobil Vactra Oil Heavy Medium". Yet the pail of oil that I bought at that same time is labeled "DTE Oil Light". I also printed the data sheet for "Mobil Vactra Oil Numbered Series", which are "slide and way oils". Apparently they kept the Vactra name for the way oils and changed the name for the circulating oil. But it's not that Vactra switched from spindle to way oil. The way oils had the Vactra name associated with them long before.

 

[beckerkumm]

Have you had or do you foresee any issues with substituting Chevron Regal R&O 68 for DTE H-M ? As i mentioned in the other thread, the lubricant guy said it was a direct cross reference for about half the price. Trust but verify. Dave