1940 Sundstrand-drive Monarch 10ee rehab

[van123d]

I recently acquired my first lathe, a 1940 Sundstrand drive Monarch 10ee. I am in the process of cleaning and inspecting it and have several questions I am hoping to find answers to.
First a picture of the lathe shortly after I received it. Just cleaned the bulk of the chips/oil off of it and wiped it down.



As I have disassembled the cross slide / carriage assembly I would like to replace all of the felt wipers. I can measure the ones I have removed but I am concerned that they are undersized due to years of compressed use. Has anyone drawn in CAD the correct dimensions for the wipers on a Sundstrand drive 10EE? I saw searching on the forum here that the replacement wipers sold by Monarch did not fit the Sundstrand lathe of another member so I will be making my own. Is F1 or F10 felt the correct felt from McMaster?


The Tachometer glass is cracked on my lathe. Does anyone know a source for a replacement glass?


I am getting a small amount of oil seepage on this inside corner here. Is this a common problem? Is there a gasket somewhere I should be looking to replace?


This looks to be the original oil cap? I only have one of these and the rest are obviously home made and one is missing. Are these available anywhere? or are the standard oil cup with the hinged cap the best replacement option currently?





When I got the lather the flat belt and all of its pulleys were completely covered in oil. It looks like this pulley is the culprit. I will need to pull the pulley and replace whatever shaft seal is there?

I do not have the lathe running currently, I have removed the Sundstrand drive and the motor is in the shop for a rewind. In the meantime I have connected a small motor up to the sundstrand and verified its functionality although I have leaks at all three of the acorn style pressure relief caps that will need to be addressed. It looks like copper washers on there currently. I will replace the washers but should a gasket or gasket material be added to help seal?

I would just like to confirm what I have found for replacing the fluids, Mobil Vactra #2 for the ways, Mobile DTE Medium heavy for the gearbox, the spindle is Mobile DTE light for the 2 outside reservoirs and Mobile DTE medium heavy for the center reservoir? The Sundstrand drive reservoir is also Mobil DTE Medium Heavy?

I have searched online but I cannot find a copy of the Monarch manual that is for the Sundstrand drive model. If anyone has a copy that they could share please let me know. I have the 6 page Sundstrand manual but not the Monarch manual.

I am missing the brass ID tag off the front of the lathe. Are reproductions available anywhere?

Thanks for any help.

 

[beckerkumm]

You can buy a manual from Monarch. Costs a little but not bad to start a relationship with them as the Monarch people are a big help with questions and some parts are fairly reasonable. As with any company, some parts are very expensive but the more common replacements are fairly priced. Dave

 

[Andy FitzGibbon]

This guy specializes in reproducing machine tags, and he just recently did one for an EE. I'm sure he's not cheap, but he does a really nice job.

Machinery Restoration | Von Industrial, LLC

Machinery restoration services specializing in reproduction etched nameplates and industrial design services.

www.vonindustrial.com

 

[Don's Engine]

DTE light for the three upper reservoirs. The left and right reservoirs sit higher internally than the middle. If / When you get an internal leak from either end, it will go to the middle reservoir. Medium for the gear box and back gear. Although here in FL, I use 75/80 gear lube and sealed bearings in the back gear. Any good 20W way oil is good for the ways, I do believe I'm still using Mobil V 2 though. Don

 

[murphatthepoint]

I recently acquired my first lathe, a 1940 Sundstrand drive Monarch 10ee. I am in the process of cleaning and inspecting it and have several questions I am hoping to find answers to.
First a picture of the lathe shortly after I received it. Just cleaned the bulk of the chips/oil off of it and wiped it down.

As I have disassembled the cross slide / carriage assembly I would like to replace all of the felt wipers. I can measure the ones I have removed but I am concerned that they are undersized due to years of compressed use. Has anyone drawn in CAD the correct dimensions for the wipers on a Sundstrand drive 10EE? I saw searching on the forum here that the replacement wipers sold by Monarch did not fit the Sundstrand lathe of another member so I will be making my own. Is F1 or F10 felt the correct felt from McMaster?

View attachment 406646
The Tachometer glass is cracked on my lathe. Does anyone know a source for a replacement glass?

View attachment 406648
I am getting a small amount of oil seepage on this inside corner here. Is this a common problem? Is there a gasket somewhere I should be looking to replace?

View attachment 406649
This looks to be the original oil cap? I only have one of these and the rest are obviously home made and one is missing. Are these available anywhere? or are the standard oil cup with the hinged cap the best replacement option currently?

View attachment 406650

View attachment 406651

When I got the lather the flat belt and all of its pulleys were completely covered in oil. It looks like this pulley is the culprit. I will need to pull the pulley and replace whatever shaft seal is there?

I do not have the lathe running currently, I have removed the Sundstrand drive and the motor is in the shop for a rewind. In the meantime I have connected a small motor up to the sundstrand and verified its functionality although I have leaks at all three of the acorn style pressure relief caps that will need to be addressed. It looks like copper washers on there currently. I will replace the washers but should a gasket or gasket material be added to help seal?

I would just like to confirm what I have found for replacing the fluids, Mobil Vactra #2 for the ways, Mobile DTE Medium heavy for the gearbox, the spindle is Mobile DTE light for the 2 outside reservoirs and Mobile DTE medium heavy for the center reservoir? The Sundstrand drive reservoir is also Mobil DTE Medium Heavy?

I have searched online but I cannot find a copy of the Monarch manual that is for the Sundstrand drive model. If anyone has a copy that they could share please let me know. I have the 6 page Sundstrand manual but not the Monarch manual.

I am missing the brass ID tag off the front of the lathe. Are reproductions available anywhere?

Thanks for any help.

 

[murphatthepoint]

Hello Van
Regarding the manual for the Sundstrand, there are a couple of options:
1. I believe there is a copy of the round dial Monarch manual from 1942 here on this site.
2. Attached please find. Photo of the front page of the 35 page Monarch filed with the US patent office for the Sundstrand Monarch 19ee, dated Oct 31, 1939 by the inventor, Clifford A Bickel. I think it was filed in 1939 and approved Aug 7,1945.
Not a manual but very helpful with illustrations and parts that are numbered.
3. There is a color brochure Monarch put out for the Monarch 10ee Sundstrsnd in 1939. Fun to review.
4. Ozark tool manuals have an operators manual for the Monarch 10ee Sundstrand.
I think Monarch has very good manuals available for later models but unsure if they have a good one for 1939/1940 machines. You can ask them.
I did order gaskets from Monarch for the early machines and they fit fine. Many people here have made them.
I added a photo of my monarch 10ee, which I’ve been working on for a long time. I don’t recommend getting asking me technical questions Others here are much more knowledgeable.

Good question about the “Oil” caps for the tailstock/headstock. I have one missing and I’ve placed wtb ads here snd other places to no avail. I’ve looked on eBay for years and they have not come up. I think the best solution would be to get a machinist to make them, possibly in a group buy. I would definitely order one for myself. I don’t think they need to be imprinted with “oil”

Please call or text me at (619) 994-9497 if you have any questions.
Jim Murphy

 

[murphatthepoint]

I did find on-line the "Model 10EE Round Dial lathe manual". It can be found on OWWM.com(Vintage Machinery.com) this manual is from 1942 but most of the manual is the same, except for the Sundstrand Drive. very helpful manual
if you go to the website, then go to the Monarch page and you will find under publications. You may be aware of this, but the early Monarchs from 1939 to 1944 are referred to round dial as opposed to 1945 and newer called square dial

Jim

 

[Cal Haines]

I have searched online but I cannot find a copy of the Monarch manual that is for the Sundstrand drive model. If anyone has a copy that they could share please let me know. I have the 6 page Sundstrand manual but not the Monarch manual.

I am missing the brass ID tag off the front of the lathe. Are reproductions available anywhere?

Thanks for any help.

I don't believe that a manual for the Sundstrand-drive 10EE exists. If it does, I've never seen nor heard of it. There is a 6-page service information bulletin for for the Sundstrand Model 2HT drive. I can send you a copy if you like. Sundstrand is still in business. They may be able to provide you with a better copy.

Before you pay Monarch for a manual, make sure that they're not just sending you a copy of the motor/generator 10EE manual, circa 1942, which is available online. (See the 10EE sticky at the top of the forum page for a link.) One thing that you can get from Monarch is the build sheet for the machine, listing the original options and showing who bought the machine.

The 1939 patent for the 10EE, mentioned above, is US Patent 2,381,422, available online from multiple locations.

The serial number for the machine should be stamped on the right end of the bed, next to the flat way for the tailstock. What is your serial number?

On any lathe of that vintage you want to pull, disassemble and clean the saddle, compound and taper attachment (if so equipped). You don't usually need to disassemble the apron, but take the bottom cover off of the apron, clean out the crud and inspect the pump. It probably needs a new filter, which can be made from F1 felt. Odds are pretty good that some or all of the Bijur metering units used in the saddle's pumped lube system are blocked. You can get new metering units from Monarch or any Bijur dealer. McMaster-Carr also has compatible metering units (link).

Monarch wasn't able to provide me the correct wipers for my 1943 round-dial (except for tailstock and cross-slide). Most of the wipers are simple rectangles. I wound up making most of my own using F1 felt from McMaster. I bought several different thickness of felt, but you could easily make the thicker ones up by laminating strips of the thinner (1/16") felt, using contact cement.

 

[m-lud]

You are missing your spindle lock knob and plunger. The plunger locks into a cogged wheel and there is a safety interlock switch that wont allow the lathe to start with the spindle lock engaged.
It's possible the Round Dial lathe didnt have the safety interlock switch, I'm not sure.

Yellow Arrow in photo.

 

[Cal Haines]

No spindle interlock switch on any model round-dial.

on edit: added "switch"

 

[rimcanyon]

Van, nice looking lathe! What is the serial number? It is the splitting image of my machine when I first got it, painted in Limey green, just brought over from London.

There are two manuals for the 1939-1940 Sundstrand drive machine. The Sundstrand drive manual, which Cal mentioned, is most important if you plan to dig into the drive, which it sounds like you are already doing. The operators manual is slightly different from the later round dial machines, with instructions for the Sundstrand drive, so you will want to get a copy of that as well.
The original came in a black cover with the old Monarch lion logo, which disappeared soon after.

I think Russ has copies of both manuals on his DVD (along with lots of other manuals and sales brochures, wiring diagrams, etc.), so be sure to ask him for a copy (assuming you still have a dvd reader for your computer).

Please post additional photos of the tailstock and the compartment below the bed showing the 5C collet rack. The rack came in at least three variations.

It is really nice to see a Sundstrand machine that is in nice condition like yours. Unlike the later round dials, all the knobs and hand wheels are cast iron, chrome-plated.

The oil plugs should all be the style you posted a photo of, and you will have to make them, there is no source of reproductions. A good first project.

Mine has the same arrangement of a flat belt and a single idler pulley, and it has worked well, except it tends to throw the belt when making a heavy cut.

As for oil, the Operators Manual recommends 10W for the spindle bearings, 20W for the headstock sump, the threading gearbox, and the tailstock. No mention is made of the oil for the apron. The oil for the Sundstrand drive is recommended to be Socony-Vacuum DTE - medium heavy. However, the above is written tongue in cheek. Follow Cal’s suggestions, and for the Sundstrand use an oil recommended for a hydraulic motor. If I think of it, I will grab the can of oil I use and let you know.

 

[van123d]

Thanks everyone for the replies so far.

Yes I had found the round dial manual on Vintage Machinery, That is the closest I have found so far. I contacted Monarch and they confirmed that the manual they provide is the generic round dial manual and not for the Sundstrand drive. I will look into the one on Ozark tools. At least the photo on the cover looks like a Sundstrand.


Monarch did supply this copy of the build sheet.

I do have the 6 page Sundstrand drive manual as well. I am not planning to dig into the drive other than fix the leaks until I run the lathe and see how it performs.

@murphatthepoint Very nice looking lathe. I have been curious what my lathe would look like in what appears to be the original dark grey paint. In the future I would like to do a complete restoration and repaint. I think going back to that original dark grey is a great option.

I will go through the patent document. I had not seen that before. Thank you to those who pointed that out.

The Serial for my lathe is EE9252

I have already pulled the saddle/compound/apron and am in the process of disassembly and cleaning everything. Some of the Bijur metering units did seem blocked but after multiple rounds in the ultrasonic and blowing them out with compressed air they all seem clear now. I will verify during re-assembly that oil is getting where it needs to and may need to replace them if not.

@Cal Haines I think it was your thread that I saw about the felts from Monarch not fitting so thank you for posting that as that saved me having the same problem. I have a friend with a laser cutter so I am going to CAD all of the wipers and get him to cut them out. I will post my CAD drawings here so someone in the future can do the same.

Yes unfortunately the spindle lock is missing from my lathe. I also do not have the stead rest, follower rest, Colet chuck or taper attachment. I will be looking for these in the future. The spindle lock I am hopeful I can make a replacement. If anyone has good photos or dimensions it would be appreciated.

Also there are two spring loaded buttons on the back of the cross slide. Looking online it appears there was a chip guard that connected there? Does anyone have good photos of this?

Here are the photos that were requested:

Collet tray


Tailstock


OIL recommendation. - Is this not the same Mobil DTE Medium that is used for the gearbox?

Can someone confirm that the Pulley that appears to be leaking that I posted a photo of above. Is there indeed a seal in there that can be replaced?

Thanks for the correction on the upper reservoir oil. I will run DTE light in all three. One question on the sight glasses. Some photos I have seen there is a plate behind the glass with a line across showing the fill line. Mine are just clear glass looking into the machine. Is that extra plate missing on mine or did those not exist on the early machines?

 

[marka12161]

No spindle interlock on any model round-dial.

Interesting. My round dial does have a spindle lock but then again the main drive sheav looks to be shop made so who knows, my machine may be a bit of a franken-lathe....

 

[van123d]

Interesting. My round dial does have a spindle lock but then again the main drive sheav looks to be shop made so who knows, my machine may be a bit of a franken-lathe....

Spindle lock or Interlock that prevents the lathe from being turned on with the lock engaged?

 

[Andy FitzGibbon]

Interesting. My round dial does have a spindle lock but then again the main drive sheav looks to be shop made so who knows, my machine may be a bit of a franken-lathe....

The interlock is an electrical switch that prevents the spindle from being started when the spindle lock is engaged.

 

[Cal Haines]

Sorry, I should have been more specific: spindle interlock switch. (I corrected my post, above.)

 

[m-lud]

Van123d
Below is a link to a thread that. Cal started requesting copies of 10ee build sheets.
I'm sure posting yours there would be appreciated. There is a lot that can be learned from the information on the build sheets.
Eventually they could be put in chronological order for reference
Thanks Mike

Requesting copies of 10EE lathe build data sheets

I would greatly appreciate help filling in some gaps in my understanding of the various options and configurations of Monarch 10EE lathes. I you have copies of the lathe build data sheets (for lack of their correct name) that you would be willing to share, please send me an e-mail. (You can go...

www.practicalmachinist.com

 

[marka12161]

Sorry, I should have been more specific: spindle interlock switch. (I corrected my post, above.)

Gotcha. Makes perfect sense.

 

[van123d]

so looking at my build sheet my lathe originally shipped with the steady rest and follower rest which unfortunately are now missing.

The collet attachment (EE-19-17) would that be the 5C collet nose? also missing unfortunately.

What is the Carriage micrometer stop (EE-20-6)? I did some searching for this and none of the options that I see look like they are on my lathe nor do I see attachment options for them. I have seen some photos of dovetail mounted micrometers but my carriage does not have a dovetail. Does someone have a photo of what this is? I am guessing it is related to this thing which screws onto the front of the carriage?

 

[murphatthepoint]

Van
Thanks for posting the photo immediately above of the carriage stop. I don’t have one of those, however, I have two threaded holes in the same position on my lathe. I’m unsure if yours is a factory option or homemade. It looks like something Monarch would have made. Hopefully, Cal or one of the other experts (Rim Canyon) will let us know if this is factory option. I have the carriage micrometer but not the stop.