1944 14C repairs and more

[wildo]

I spent a couple hours on the 4 jaw trying to get the jaws to clamp straight. No luck.

I put the bison 3 jaw on and immediately had it in 001 run out. Few taps and with in 0005 12" out from the chuck. I think a nice chuck is almost better than a lathe without wear.

The reason why I wanted to chuck up the 2-15/16 TG&P was to see how straight the saddle runs, and if I can accurately machine the tailstock quill. Quick run up and down the shaft netted less than 0005 which was good enough for me. This decided my next project was going to be repairing the tailstock, rather than the saddle.





The 2-7/8 tailstock compared to the 2-15/16 replacement quill mat'l. Maybe 004" from the bore/quil od wear. The rest is from the ways and carraige.





Quill feed nut





Quill bore; I wonder if this casting porosity would've been rejected if it weren't 1944






The first wrench in the works for my plan to bore to 2-15/16 is the handwheel end thread id is is .030 smaller. This isn't the end of the world for my plans on boring it, but it does make it a little bit more tricky to hit size/hone etc if its not a straight through hole. Then there is also going to be the issue of the bores being offset if the original threads are retained.

Solution will probably be a threaded insert or if maybe if I'm feeling really motivated some kind of tailstock mounted on to a faceplate to cut new threads, but this is unlikely.

 

[wildo]

Tailstock parts after their bath

 

[wildo]

the tailstock base / me / was stupid. Not having a straight edge I had to use the wore ways to spot. I didn't get finished pictures because I wasn't too happy with them but I think it will be ok. Because the ways are wore it only has good contact 12" from the chuck and 12" from the end of the bed. Whaddayagonna do? A touch more sanity was lost on this day.




















Purists might want to look away for the next few posts because it's not going to be pretty

 

[wildo]

Ideally I would've like to had a bar that fit through spindle and use lathe to fixture/power it. My boring bar is 2.25 so that limited my options to running it with line boring machine and having the tailstock clamped to the ways, or chucking one end of the bar and having a method of feeding the tailstock. I chose the first option as I don't have a good chuck.
It was a somewhat cumbersome dialing it in. Had to account for bar and indicator sag, plus slight bow in the bar. My old boss and mentor called line boring the height of fuckery.

I am just on the finishing cut now. Hopefully the majority cleans up and size is ok further down the bore. Its not ideal to pull the bar to use an id mic, as the setup can move etc. Plus just because you're on the money for the first half inch doesn't mean it's not going to do whatever it wants 6" down. So spring calipers it is.

 

[pat pounden]

Ideally I would've like to had a bar that fit through spindle and use lathe to fixture/power it. My boring bar is 2.25 so that limited my options to running it with line boring machine and having the tailstock clamped to the ways, or chucking one end of the bar and having a method of feeding the tailstock. I chose the first option as I don't have a good chuck.
It was a somewhat cumbersome dialing it in. Had to account for bar and indicator sag, plus slight bow in the bar. My old boss and mentor called line boring the height of fuckery.

I am just on the finishing cut now. Hopefully the majority cleans up and size is ok further down the bore. Its not ideal to pull the bar to use an id mic, as the setup can move etc. Plus just because you're on the money for the first half inch doesn't mean it's not going to do whatever it wants 6" down. So spring calipers it is.

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i'm sure glad EVERYBODY else can follow all this-wow,am i confused--but it looks like it will work!-

 

[Mr_CNC_guy]

A question from an amateur, would a reamer give you better results? Especially an adjustable reamer.

 

[pat pounden]

A question from an amateur, would a reamer give you better results? Especially an adjustable reamer.

i THINK that the hole is out of concentricity,and all this work setup to get back...but i'm not sure!

 

[wildo]

A question from an amateur, would a reamer give you better results? Especially an adjustable reamer.

A reamer would want to follow the existing hole. After scraping base of tailstock back straight was .020" lower than the headstock, so that would be no good. After boring I am going to hone it to size.

It looks complicated but it isn't really. My line boring machine is a stand alone thing that normally gets used to bore heavy equipment in the field; excavator bores, dozers etc.

Typical setup consists of 2 bearings which the drive motor assembly can mount onto either of them, and a bar to go in between. The feed box attaches to the bar and pulls the bar through the bearings as it rotates, the leadscrew for the feed box is a piece of acme rod. The tool bit is just a square (1/2") carbide or hss tool bit. Cut diameter is done by how much tool is sticking out of the bar.

Normally the bearings have brackets which get welded onto whatever you're wanting to machine. In the case of the lathe that wasn't really an option, so one bearing shell was mounted into steady rest, and the other shell was kept in its bracket and bolted to angle plate which I bolted to the cross slide. I added some reinforcing bracket from the taper attachment holes on the saddle to help support the drive motor weight. I added a 3rd bearing in between the 2 outboard bearings to keep everything a bit happier.

Here's a video. I am boring it to 3" now because there was still some scoring at 2-15/16

https://flic.kr/p/2nYdnWR

 

[wildo]

This is a non typical job I did, on a cast iron flywheel off a jaw crusher.. I bored it oversize and made a split sleeve 1/4" or 5/16" thick as the id of the flywheel was messed up (the flywheel literally fell off the crusher, probably at 500 rpm or so)

This is the facing attachment which has a tool holder which feeds outwards (or inwards)

 

[wildo]

Plunge cutting faces & taking the remaining threads out of handwheel end. I think I will machine threads off end cap, press a sleeve on, and drill/counter bore 4 holes to secure the end cap rather than threading it.












Overall the bore turned out good. I left .005 material for honing, polishing spindle and general insurance incase it cut larger in the middle.
I don't think it would've been much trouble to get it within 0005 of finish size as it machined nice, but better safe than oversize (hopefully!)

I put some devcon in the casting porosity and also filled the keyway with a piece of key stock and devcon in prep for honing. I'll probably leave honing it till I have machined the quill.

I followed Forrest Addy's advice in post #6 here https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...tock-accurately-enough-in-a-home-shop.252364/

Last week I ordered a nice 12" bison 4 jaw. It showed up today, along with a 10" 3 jaw I bought to salvage a back plate from. Well the 4 jaw certainly wasn't the one that I ordered (or paid for). I have to call the seller tomorrow but I'm pretty cranky about it. They already had to refund a faceplate I ordered because it had been previously sold..

Anyways it was hard to stay mad peeling off chips with the monarch.

I cleaned up the 4 jaw. Pleasant surprise it wasn't as bad as it appears, though it had still been used as a welding positioner or something equally stupid judging by the pipe union which was welded to it's back plate . I think it will be bell mouthed on the reverse jaw side, but regular looks like it will good. And its a Cushman.

The 3 jaw chuck is like brand new. I feel a bit bad cannibalizing it, but hey it was a $100 chuck, and I couldn't find a makers mark on it.









Roughed out and cooling down will finish tomorrow.

 

[wildo]

Well I spent a few hours making the back plate fit the 4 jaw nice etc to find the chuck is just as bad as the Chinese one. A refund was obtained and I've ordered a NOS bison from ebay

Chucked up quill in the 3 jaw and got it running pretty nice. Not the way I'd like to do it but, alas.
I screwed around for a while trying to get a nice finish without the 4140 tearing on the morse taper but it wasn't going to happen without a taper attachment. I decided to go back to the original MT4 as MT5 would make everything a few inches longer. More stress on machine and I think I'll be needing to use the whole the bed length more than a 2" drill bit. I've ordered a reamer to finish the taper.

Slow and oily drilling the 13" total without coolant.







Some quick length calculations. Whoever did the quill modifications cut an inch off the end of the quill. They would've only been able to drill 4 or so inches deep!












I am making the keyway 5/16 - original was 1/4 and the keyway in tailstock is flogged out. My buddy I got the shaper from said I've probably used it more in the couple months than anyone has in the 30 years his business has owned it lol

 

[wildo]

The honing was a bit of a frig around. I haven't done any serious stock removal honing so this was a learning curve. If anyone is planning on doing something like this I would suggest a better way of filling the keyway and lock bore. Either that or a longer hone. Maybe a hone with stiffer wipers would've kept it straighter; the felt wipers would drop into the slots and pull it wonky. The lock sleeve is hardened otherwise I would've bored it all together.

Overall not terrible was able to blue up the spindle and remove the high spots on the one end with emery cloth. Just added a number of hours onto the job.




It didn't take long to figure out that the .007 wouldn't just buff out in a few passes. I think it took around 4 hours or so! I didn't have any roughing stones.



















The tailstock casting was so porous that there was enough honing grit leftover after a pretty good wash that I was able to use the quill as a lap. I gave it a much better scrub afterwards with a drill mounted brush.

 

[wildo]

I made a "piloted" counterbore and followed up with a flat spot drill to clean up the bottom of c.bore


I put a couple thou interference on the sleeve and pressed in with retaining compound. I didn't want to have any issues with the casting cracking so tapped the 1/4"NC holes right close



I didn't have any 1.5" round bearing bronze and neither did anyone else in town so I made $50 of chips turning down square stock I had for the cross slide nut.





The nut sits .060" proud of the quill. I guess this is for positive retention? I measured the old quill and nut multiple times and they are same and appear to be original. Seems a bit excessive.

 

[wildo]

The part I've been least looking forward to was doing the graduations. I cut the few thou recess on the lathe. I spent a few hours trying to get a good setup to cut the grads close as possible to original. I got fed up and decided to hand stamp the lines, as it was too risky turning the chuck to cut the lines, and I didn't want to half a day frigging around figuring out how to cut them on the shaper.

I never did any hand stamping of grads as an apprentice but I remember seeing projects my boss made as an apprentice and being amazed by how accurate and crisp they were. He was a tool and die maker. I figured I'd be happier with a rough hand stamped job rather than a rough machine cut job. I left the 1/16" grads out because I'm not a masochist.

If the quill was hardened I would do a better job polishing the scratches out. Alas it's inevitable that after a couple jobs it will be scratched every which way.













Almost finished. Need to cut the keyway oversize in the tailstock bore, make drill tang pins and then some repairs to quick lock and misc fitting. I think it will take a week or so to get the reamer to finish taper, but it has useable contact and retention as is.

 

[wildo]

tang lock screws. I used the lead screw reverse for these, unlike the quill nut which I used the half nuts for.
I like the leadscrew reverse; it's super quick threading especially with the cross slide stop. Though I think there's some more noise coming from the headstock after cutting these - only with feed engaged. Hope I didn't bugger anything up; I ran around 180 rpm or so.

I want to figure out a good way to get spindle reverse incorporated into the clutch lever, or at least on the apron . I am used to pulling straight up for reverse when screw cutting. I like the feed reverse but I don't want to damage anything using it.







I used a #2 taper pin for the key retainer. I'm not sure what original is. It was broken off in there, I left it in there when I cut the keyway.



I'm not sure what was going on with the tailstock quick clamp. It was all messed up when I got the lathe; the lever would unlock pushing forward and then smack into the bedway. I like pushing forward to lock so I flipped it around. Had to braze up old pin holes and cracks. Now when unlocking the lever comes back and stops on the tailstock bolt.

There was a tapped hole in the cam shaft, for a bolt to hit on the tailstock casting to stop the lever. This was broken off and cheesed up. Looking at the parts manual and a few pictures online it doesn't look original, and I doubt it is a factory design as that bolt would shear off way too easily. I marked the areas in yellow where the bolt used to be hitting.

I had issues getting the cam action good when I was messing around with it prior to this. The eye bolt was hitting the casting and stopping it from going to full lift. A quick lick with the grinder and it works perfectly.

I tapped the tailstock oil well hole 1/8 npt and put the oil cap that was mounted on the apron there.




















Anyway aside from finish reaming the taper and alignment it's done. I will likely need to face the end of the quill off 1/8 or so and have allowed for that. Maybe need to extend the ejector pin on the screw too.

I am stoked the lathe is now useable. Its been a lot of hours getting it up and running. The last 10 days have been minimum 12 hour days devoted to it, but it's been pretty steady work for the past 2 months starting with re-organizing the shop to fit it and going from there.
I'm going to fix the saddle slides and get it back level and square. It's pretty far out. But I can work with that stuff for now. As long as the machine isn't getting actively damaged in it's operation I am willing to let things go for a while.

I have a feeling there's going to be some more work needed in the headstock as the lever closest to the chuck presumably slipped on its yoke again and came out of index.

 

[wildo]

Mail came today



It was time for moment of truth and checking tailstock alignment after boring. I am very happy with final alignment. The major issue with getting it dead on is getting it dead on to what? The tailstock ways being wore at least 005" near the chuck made it a lot more challenging to rework compared to having nice ways. I have to confess I did screw up a little bit honing it and the bore ended up oversize 0005 for the first 3 inches of the bore, so when locking the quill it does shift half a thou which accounts for the quill out of parallel and pointing down a bit. But in reality that is absolutely fine for whatever hack work I am turning out.

The reamer finish didn't turn out as well as I'd like. It's not terrible, but its also not a ground finish. I wrapped some scotchbrite on a drill mounted brush to smooth it out a little bit. I haven't tried drilling anything to see how it holds, but Im pretty sure it will be ok. The reamer was only cutting on 3 flutes. I'm not sure if that was an alignment thing or just a crappy reamer. I went around 3/16" deeper from where I bored it with the compound.

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[wildo]

I made a little extension for the skoda live center. Rather than extending the ejector screw and loosing drilling depth. The little giant tap handle seems a bit big turning a 10-32 tap. I need to get a smaller tap handle.




Yeah the holes are off center. lol









Now its done!

 

[kqua]

Excellent pictures and posts.
Thanks for all your work!

 

[wildo]

I am starting on the spindle reverse.

Basic idea is I will use a frenic-ace VFD for forward/reverse and limited braking/soft start. I don't intend to have a lot of VFD influence on the motor if that makes sense. I'm not sure the motor is original, but it's certainly old, so I don't want to put a lot of stress on the windings.
VFDs are new to me so it's going to be a bit of head scratching.

There will be 2 modes; Normal and threading.
Normal is turn the motor on with start/stop selector switch and use the clutch as usual, and no limit switch influence. Stop position on start/stop selector will be a coast stop. The reverse push button will be functional if spindle reverse is needed. E-stop will give motor hard brake.

Threading mode will be controlled by the limit switches mounted on clutch linkage. With clutch disengaged the first limit switch is open and no motor rotation. Around an inch into engaging clutch the limit switch will close, turning motor on. Now to reverse the spindle disengage clutch which stops the spindle and brakes motor. and when pulling hard up it will close the top limit switch, which will change the state of sequenced latching relay, and upon engaging clutch & lower limit switch motor will start in reversed rotation.

The sequence relay is dumb and will stay in position it's left in. Hence the reverse rotation indicator light.

This is all in theory anyway.
I might need another relay or 2 depending on how the fwd and reverse terminals work on vfd. Reading the manual makes my head hurt.

I'm always scrounging switches and industrial elec stuff so I had everything kicking around sub the latching relay.








This probably makes no sense to read. I just need to write it out to wrap my head around it a bit more. Hopefully have a diagram and working system over the weekend.

 

[CDR243]

Epic thread, wish I had 1/2 your abilities.