1953 Monarch 10EE Project

[rke[pler]

I've got the bronze button that the spring presses against, PM me. I might have the spring or at least a picture of it as well.

Well, I didn't have it, must have sold it or something. My parts sheet doesn't show it but a post from Cal here has it:

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/monarch-lathes/feed-rod-drive-mismatch-196270/#post1275405

As I mentioned in my PM I suspect that the bronze plunger was later eliminated for just the spring, so maybe a call to Monarch would be in order to see if your lathe had it?

On edit: found the post, has a decent enough description with some dims. Likely I gave it to the guy asking about it. Make sure your lathe needs it before cramming it in there.

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...eed-rod-output-1946-10-ee-197081/#post2741259

 

[m-lud]

Owensexport
Since you were missing the other oil lines I found another one today when I removed my apron. Just verify you have the oil line in the photo's going to the worm gears.

In the second photo you can see the oil line going from the upper sump down too the worm gear


Russ
The oil port on my half nuts were also clogged up with Schmoo
. Thanks

 

[owensexport]

On edit: found the post, has a decent enough description with some dims. Likely I gave it to the guy asking about it. Make sure your lathe needs it before cramming it in there.
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...eed-rod-output-1946-10-ee-197081/#post2741259

Copy that, thanks

 

[owensexport]

The longer line goes to the longitude feed clutch. In the hole in the boss just like the shorter oil line in the crossfeed clutch shaft.

Got it, I could not see where it went as I had removed the housing that holds in the longitude clutch lever, after I cleaned it up and test fitted it, I see exactly where it should go - Thanks!! You guys are amazing!

 

[owensexport]

Owensexport
Since you were missing the other oil lines I found another one today when I removed my apron. Just verify you have the oil line in the photo's going to the worm gears.

That one is in place

 

[Cal Haines]

View attachment 304238
By its design the pump has to be cam or eccentric driven. One side of the arm against something stationary and the other side riding on the cam. I was thinking it had to be in automatic feed from a post that I had read but that wouldn't be practical. Feeding with the cross feed hand wheel turns the same shafts /gears as the feed screw turns.
...

On square-dial machines, the pump operates either when the apron is moving OR when the feed rod is turning and the plunger is pushed to the rear, in the longitudinal feed position.

Referring to parts sheets 143 and 146, here's how it works:

The left cam for the apron feed pump is integral to part EE-3515, which includes the handwheel gear. EE-3515 is keyed to the handwheel shaft and rotates with the shaft. Note that dog clutch EE-1764, on the outboard end of the handwheel shaft, can disengage the handwheel from the shaft. EE-3515 drives, or is driven by, gear EE-3602, which is keyed to rack pinion shaft. Thus, the left cam operates the apron pump any time that the apron is moved longitudinally, whether by turning the handwheel or engaging either the longitudinal clutch or the threading half-nuts. This part of the system is common to round- and square-dial machines.

The worm wheel shaft and gear EE-3605 rotate any time that the feed rod is turning. Pushing the feed-select plunger to the rear moves EE-3605 into mesh with idler gear EE-3604, which then drives compound gear EE-3606. The compound gear in turn drives gear EE-3519, which is the input/driving side of the longitudinal feed clutch. The right cam for the apron pump is part EE-3520, bolted to the side of EE-3519. Thus, the feed pump is driven any time the feed rod is turning and the feed plunger is set for apron feed; the longitudinal feed clutch need not be engaged for the pump to be driven.

Cal

 

[owensexport]

Thus, the feed pump is driven any time the feed rod is turning and the feed plunger is set for apron feed; the longitudinal feed clutch need not be engaged for the pump to be driven.

Cal

Good info!! I will verify this when I get the apron back together.

 

[m-lud]

On square-dial machines, the pump operates either when the apron is moving OR when the feed rod is turning and the plunger is pushed to the rear, in the longitudinal feed position.

Referring to parts sheets 143 and 146, here's how it works:

The left cam for the apron feed pump is integral to part EE-3515, which includes the handwheel gear. EE-3515 is keyed to the handwheel shaft and rotates with the shaft. Note that dog clutch EE-1764, on the outboard end of the handwheel shaft, can disengage the handwheel from the shaft. EE-3515 drives, or is driven by, gear EE-3602, which is keyed to rack pinion shaft. Thus, the left cam operates the apron pump any time that the apron is moved longitudinally, whether by turning the handwheel or engaging either the longitudinal clutch or the threading half-nuts. This part of the system is common to round- and square-dial machines.

The worm wheel shaft and gear EE-3605 rotate any time that the feed rod is turning. Pushing the feed-select plunger to the rear moves EE-3605 into mesh with idler gear EE-3604, which then drives compound gear EE-3606. The compound gear in turn drives gear EE-3519, which is the input/driving side of the longitudinal feed clutch. The right cam for the apron pump is part EE-3520, bolted to the side of EE-3519. Thus, the feed pump is driven any time the feed rod is turning and the feed plunger is set for apron feed; the longitudinal feed clutch need not be engaged for the pump to be driven.

Cal

In that post I was answering to thermites post. I later looked in mine and pointed out the two points that each pump arm rides. photo below. One being the cam on the handwheel shaft and the other on the shoulder of the clutch gear. I believe the clutch gear point r being round. It could be an eccentric to pump when in automatic longitude drive

My dog clutch on my handwheel must be stuck. All the handles were sticky

That's a great explanation of when its pumping oil. I still have to read again and go through step by step but it sounds like its pumping oil any time there is movement of the apron. Manual or automatic.
Thanks



Edit;
There is a cam on both arms

 

[Cal Haines]

In that post I was answering to thermites post. I later looked in mine and pointed out the two points that each pump arm rides. photo below. One being the cam on the handwheel shaft and the other on the shoulder of the clutch gear. I believe the clutch gear point r being round. It could be an eccentric to pump when in automatic longitude drive

The right (tailstock end) cam follower doesn't run on a shoulder of the clutch gear, the eccentric (EE-3520) is bolted onto the gear. It's definitely eccentric: Years back I was helping a friend with his square-dial. We had the apron blocked up and the saddle off. We ran the feed rod and you could see that the cam follower was moving up and down; there was oil coming out of the connector for the saddle. At the time I don't think that I understood that the feed select plunger also had to be in the rear position. But looking at the gear train, it's obvious that's the case.

Round-dials only have one cam follower and don't pump oil in the second mode. They only pump when the carriage is moving.

Cal

 

[m-lud]

Owensexport's lathe was rebuilt in 1986. Either someone mucked up the apron lubeicating system during rebuild or since then. A lot can happen in 34 years. I have been following his thread because I'm doing the same job. My lathe sat for the last 20 years .

Anyone buying one of these old jewels and not giving the apron and carriage lubricating system a complete servicing is rolling the dice. I'm sure there are lathes with known history that dont need serviced.
The headstock is keeping it full and the gears sling it.

Mine had clogged lines and owensexports had missing lines.

rkepler called it right on clogged half nuts oil port on both lathes'. Keep the leadscrew clean or muck will fill that half nut oil port in one mucky pass.
Just the education and knowing how the lubrication works will help in knowing when its not working right.

I worked on some envelope folding machines that were 75 years old. They ran 24/7 . All bronze bearings and I seldom seen a bearing fail. The oiler man made his rounds daily giving each bearing a couple drops.
Oil is required.

 

[m-lud]

Owens I wasn't criticizing your lathe in the last post. Overall you have a great lathe. Your fixing what needs attention. Minor details.

 

[DualValve]

When I went through the oiling system in the apron of my '54 square dial, I found that the push rod that pushes on the lever of the oilpump had worn a groove or depression in the brass lever. This effectively shortened the actual stroke of the oil pump.
I welded a bit of steel onto the end of the pushrod, and ground and polished the new end. The actual stroke of the oil pump was increased by roughly 1/3.

When I had checked the oil pump while it was removed from the apron, using my thumb, I was able to give the pump a full length stroke, but installed, the pump was not getting but a fraction of a full length stroke. I will recommend looking closely at the free play in the push rod and levers and cam-following levers. You want to find any lost motion while it is apart and relatively easy to see and diagnose.

Before reinstalling the apron, you can very effectively check the installed oil pump in the apron. Since the hand wheel has one of the two cams that run the oil pump, you can set up the apron and spin the hand wheel running the pump. You should get oil coming out of the transfer port that mates with the oil hole in the carriage. I pilfered a plastic suction straw from a hand-sprayer bottle, like a bottle of windex or 409. This suction straw nicely fit snug into the oil transfer hole on the top of the apron. When spinning the wheel I was able to [eventally] get oil rising up the clear plastic straw.

You have to temporarily plug this output port or transfer port in order to build up enough pressure to push oil past the restrictor valve in the small catch basin in the top of the apron that feeds lube to the half nuts and clutch bearings. I think that restrictor valve needs 5psi to open, and let the air and oil be purged from the passageway.

Next you can look forward to removing your carriage and cleaning out the manifold and oil lines and ports feeding oil to the ways.. If your earlier rebuild did a good job and the oil in the system was clean, maybe your restrictor valves and lines won't be clogged up.

Best of luck.. you WILL love your 10EE once you start using it.

DualValve

 

[owensexport]

Anyone buying one of these old jewels and not giving the apron and carriage lubricating system a complete servicing is rolling the dice. I'm sure there are lathes with known history that dont need serviced.
The headstock is keeping it full and the gears sling it.

ABSOLUTELY!! I was not going to do it at first but now I am glad I listened to you guys and ripped it apart, you can see the results of missing parts and misguided (in my opinion) modifications.

 

[owensexport]

Oil pump drive plunger

 

[owensexport]

Oil pump reinstalled and primed

 

[owensexport]

Passage to cross slide oil system bleed out

 

[owensexport]

Bleeding the reservoir restrictor, I had to turn the traverse wheel for about 10 minutes to get all the air out.

 

[owensexport]

Oil getting to the half nuts now!
What a chore

 

[owensexport]

Time to put this aside until I come up with some oil lines. All in all it went pretty well, everything seems to be working now.

 

[owensexport]

Now to tackle this mess...
It all came apart without too much trouble.
I am actually surprised by how dirty it is in these mechanisms. They must have been using some really gumming cutting oils on this machine