1958 Cincinatti #3 MI with 3HP independent Overhead Spindle

[aefriot]

I thank everyone for the information I received about the Cincinnati 28-60 (not 28-120) that I posted about before (https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/cincinnati-milacron-kearney-trecker-vn-usa-heavy-iron/free-cincinati-mill-388785/?highlight=cincinnati+MI). I am in the process of ridding myself of the hunk of iron that I was unable to make use of. It was far too big to move and I had been forewarned that I would have far too many hydraulic leaks than I could attend to. Also, keeping my property free of contaminants is very important to me.

I never worked with bigger equipment than a Smithy Granite 3-in-1, this piece looks nice to me, but as I found out with the Smithy...better ask before getting myself involved with a piece I know nothing about.

I do know that Cincinnati appears to be a commonly used brand in the industrial sense. I read, old iron is preferred over newer imports. What I have not read, is what to look out for with the Cincinnati #3 MI horizontal mill with the vertical mill spindle. I'm hoping to hear "It's an oldie, but a goodie!" But time will tell. I would like to know what to look for prior to making arrangements for purchase and delivery. Also, is there a preferred method to support such a machine. I'm happy I don't have to worry about supporting the 36,000+ lb 28-60! Oh, my!

I also know pricing these is dependent on condition, cost of delivery & setup and urgency of need. I am pretty handy, resourceful and in no hurry. Usually, if I am unable to purchase something, I figure it wasn't my time.

By no means, I am not going to open shop to provide professional services. I don't think I could or ever would do that. But I want to be able to make/repair parts for equipment we own or make things I want for our property. I see #3s listed for about $1500 on a "auction" site, but not exact to the one I picture here.

So, if I could:

1. Find out what the shortcomings of these machines so I know what to look for
2. What type of tooling would I need to find? How difficult is it to find that tooling? Also, are the speeds of the machine fast enough for modern carbide tooling/bits?
3. Get a ballpark price for a good usable machine
4. Can a 4" concrete floor reinforced with wire mesh suffice or should I opt for 6" and/or reinforcement rod?

I apologize about the images being rotated. They are right way up on my computer and seem to have been rotated on upload and I cannot seem to delete them to upload new images.

 

[johnoder]

Date code 5F is 1958. It may have every defect one can find in 64 year old equipment - or it may not

I'll guess it takes NMTB 50 tooling. Easy to tell - the spindle flange with the face keys will be 5.0625" diameter if NMTB 50

No, it never heard of "cat" tooling of any kind - though some of these can be altered to be usable

 

[Andy FitzGibbon]

Spindle taper is NMTB 50... tooling is affordable and easy and to find. Weight will likely be near 8k, so 6" of concrete with rebar would be best.

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[Elwood1968]

So, if I could:

1. Find out what the shortcomings of these machines so I know what to look for
2. What type of tooling would I need to find? How difficult is it to find that tooling? Also, are the speeds of the machine fast enough for modern carbide tooling/bits?
3. Get a ballpark price for a good usable machine
4. Can a 4" concrete floor reinforced with wire mesh suffice or should I opt for 6" and/or reinforcement rod?

It's an oldie (but not that old). It may be a goodie. No way to know until you buy it and run it for awhile. I'm assuming from the photos that the machine cannot be tested prior to purchase.

It appears to be a fairly well-equipped machine. Universal table, independent overarm spindle with double swivel, two Type B arbor supports. It would have been shipped from the factory with a dividing head and footstock, plus the gearbox for the right end of the table, but those items probably disappeared long ago (and if you're not cutting gears, you'll likely never miss them). The presence of some of the arbor supports and all of the control handles is a good sign, though. What does the table surface look like - smooth, or full of divots and holes from mis-use?

Shortcomings? Well, wear and previous owner abuse are the two obvious concerns. If you can start it before purchase, verify that you have lubrication flow at the top of the column (there's a sight glass on the left side) and at the table and saddle? It looks like someone has added a pressure gauge sticking out of the column on the left side; either they were into preventative maintenance, or the machine had or has a pressure problem.

Being a universal table, it will have more moving parts in the knee, so more things to go wrong. If you don't need a universal, a plain machine would be simpler, but finding one in the same or better condition, close enough to buy and move, priced right, etc. are all considerations.

The solenoid and hydraulic valve on the right side of the knee can give problems. Used replacements can be found, but they might not be cheap.

If the machine hasn't been maintained, you can expect to have hydraulic problems at some point. Stuck gear shifts, plugged lube lines to the knee or spindle bearings, etc.

NMTB50 tooling is relatively common still, and I can see at least three arbors in the photos. But what you will need to find depends on what type of work you need to do. You may never need any of those arbors, and instead need end mill holders, or face mill holders, or maybe just a good collet adapter and set of collets.

Note that this machine has three motors: main spindle, knee, and overarm. And probably a coolant pump down on the base somewhere. Do you have enough three-phase electrical capacity to run all of those motors at the same time? Do you have three-phase already available, because if not, you'll need to add a rotary phase converter or VFD(s) of sufficient capacity, and those should be considered in the purchase price. And don't forget that (if original), those motors are old now, and may need to be replaced or re-wound at some point, which won't be cheap.

The manuals (operator's, service, and parts) for this machine (and the independent overarm spindle) are (I think) available for free download on vintagemachinery.org. Spend some time reading through them before making a purchase.

Pricing is all over the spectrum. $1,500 for a machine like this in good condition would be, in my opinion, a very good deal.

A No. 3 is relatively large for a home shop, and this is a fairly big jump from a Smithy. Would a Bridgeport or Toolmaster be a better choice at this point?

 

[HappyWyo]

I agree that a Bridgeport may be better for a home shop. We have Bridgeports and Cincinnatis in our commercial shop. The Cincinnatis are excellent machines. You can use high speed steel or carbide. Both of our Cincinnatis have shaft driven coolant pumps. Previous owner of one of them "babbitt company" used water and ruined the pump. I rebuilt it, made all new gears etc. And it works great now. Your floor is plenty strong enough. Both of our machines still have original motors, run on rotor phase. We didn't have to purchase any new parts, but did spend a couple weeks tearing them down and manufacturing new parts as needed. They are both like new machines now. I did have to make a new lube pump for the horizontal. I manufactured a internal pump that picks up the gear lube oil and distributes it "filtered" through the lube system. We also put oil filters on both mills so the oil is cleaned before it goes into the project being milled. We actually have filters on all of our machines.

 

[aefriot]

It's an oldie (but not that old). It may be a goodie. No way to know until you buy it and run it for awhile. I'm assuming from the photos that the machine cannot be tested prior to purchase.

It should be able to be tested. The present owner is a commercial/industrial salvage/recycle company owner. I do not believe he has ever had it powered. There is 3 phase power at the location and I do know a machinist about 1/4 mile away if he would look it over but I want to be relatively sure I would be ready to call the owner on vacation in a warm and sunny place to express my interest and request a price. An employee of the owner has stated that he might just scrap it...leaving me to believe he might take half of the $1500 requested by others for their machines.

It appears to be a fairly well-equipped machine. Universal table, independent overarm spindle with double swivel, two Type B arbor supports. It would have been shipped from the factory with a dividing head and footstock, plus the gearbox for the right end of the table, but those items probably disappeared long ago (and if you're not cutting gears, you'll likely never miss them). The presence of some of the arbor supports and all of the control handles is a good sign, though. What does the table surface look like - smooth, or full of divots and holes from mis-use?

This is what helps me. I have bought things before only to learn that all the extras were left behind because I didn't know to ask for them. I did not see any dividing head and I don't know what a footstock or table gearbox is. I might just make a digital dividing head. The machine looks pretty nice and I don't remember seeing any scarring on the table.

If you can start it before purchase, verify that you have lubrication flow at the top of the column (there's a sight glass on the left side) and at the table and saddle? It looks like someone has added a pressure gauge sticking out of the column on the left side; either they were into preventative maintenance, or the machine had or has a pressure problem.

I should be able to start the machine as there is 3 phase power. Also, thank you for the lubrication tip. I most likely would never have known that lubricant would be pumped to the column.

Being a universal table, it will have more moving parts in the knee, so more things to go wrong. If you don't need a universal, a plain machine would be simpler, but finding one in the same or better condition, close enough to buy and move, priced right, etc. are all considerations.

The solenoid and hydraulic valve on the right side of the knee can give problems. Used replacements can be found, but they might not be cheap.

If the machine hasn't been maintained, you can expect to have hydraulic problems at some point. Stuck gear shifts, plugged lube lines to the knee or spindle bearings, etc.

I don't usually try to avoid tools because they might be a problem in the future. I do try to understand what is wrong with the tool and decide if I will want and be able to repair it should something happen in the future. I learn to repair things by necessity.

NMTB50 tooling is relatively common still, and I can see at least three arbors in the photos. But what you will need to find depends on what type of work you need to do. You may never need any of those arbors, and instead need end mill holders, or face mill holders, or maybe just a good collet adapter and set of collets.

Nice, sounds like I should be able to find some large lots of tooling at auctions. But I don't have an idea of what I want to do with the machine as I have no experience with this type of tool. I am sure, though, once I get involved, I can find more and more I want to do. Hence, more tooling will be required.

Note that this machine has three motors: main spindle, knee, and overarm. And probably a coolant pump down on the base somewhere. Do you have enough three-phase electrical capacity to run all of those motors at the same time? Do you have three-phase already available, because if not, you'll need to add a rotary phase converter or VFD(s) of sufficient capacity, and those should be considered in the purchase price. And don't forget that (if original), those motors are old now, and may need to be replaced or re-wound at some point, which won't be cheap.

3 phase power is not an issue and I can take care of the motors should they need maintenance or repair.

The manuals (operator's, service, and parts) for this machine (and the independent overarm spindle) are (I think) available for free download on vintagemachinery.org. Spend some time reading through them before making a purchase.

Pricing is all over the spectrum. $1,500 for a machine like this in good condition would be, in my opinion, a very good deal.

A No. 3 is relatively large for a home shop, and this is a fairly big jump from a Smithy. Would a Bridgeport or Toolmaster be a better choice at this point?

I have the manuals and other literature downloaded and go through them to learn about the machine and its actions and features. As far as being too big, I can understand that. But I have a desire to limit the size of the shop and combining two machines to be flexible I thought would be a good idea. This is why I ask for help to show me how the machine may not live up to my limited knowledge of what I may want to do. I never saw the Smithy as something that gave me the wrong idea of how much I could do with it...until I started to use it and found its limitations. A Bridgeport or toolmaster seem tall and really top heavy. I'm short and find reaching the top is difficult, I could certainly be wrong, but I don't think the #3 was not as tall.

I recently disassembled much of my Cincinnati 28-60. (Much of which is going to the same recycler that owns the subject of this post) I disassembled it so I would not have to hire a crane for half a day to load it onto a lowboy. The recycler will, instead, retrieve the pieces with a truck with an integrated crane which will load up to 25,000 lb.. I found the immense size and weight intimidating. I did, though, found it an educating experience. I learned about the hydraulics and lubrication system. Moving surfaces were grooved to hold oil to extend the life of the moving parts.

Some of the parts I will keep. The table will provide a surface for a welding table at one end and a manual mill at the other. The x y and z axis are provided by the 3 axis hydrotel portion previously attached to the mill. The pin/sensor will be replaced by a spindle powered by a motor mounted in Bridgeport or toolmaster fashion, above the box. It will be cheap and dirty, but it won't cost me much for a mill in my garage. Still, I would like something that is known to work in its original state and I'm hoping it may work just as good now...in my machine shop.

Thank you for the time you spent to educate me.

 

[4GSR]

Forget about trying to hook up and test. At junk pricing, get it out of there to your place, THEN start playing with it. There's no doubt in my mind it should fire up and run in all speeds and feeds with no headaches. Just quick view of the pictures you posted, it don't appear "Bubba" has got ahold of the machine yet! If it was close to me, i would be all over it in a heart beat!

 

[Elwood1968]

Two additional notes about the lubrication: first, before starting, ensure that the lubricant levels are correct. Should be one for the column, and a separate one (with a different oil) for the knee elevation screw. Second, if the internal construction of that mill is like my Cincinnati, you might have to wait a few minutes of run time before you see oil in the sight glass. There's a reservoir at the top of the column that has to fill before oil overflows into the feed line to the sight glass, so be patient. And remember that the same oil goes to the spindle bearings, so I don't operate the spindle on my mill until I see oil flowing.

As to the center of gravity of a vertical turret ram mill like a Bridgeport or Toolmaster, yes they are top heavy when moving them. But once in place, you'd be hard pressed to tip one over. I'm short as well, and have no problems running my Toolmaster. While there are some jobs that can be done on either type of machine, a Toolmaster and a horizontal mill (even with a vertical attachment) have different capabilities, and I wouldn't want to be without either one in my shop.

If you have the opportunity to buy that No. 3 for $1,500, I wouldn't hesitate unless it's a real basket case that can't be seen in the photos.

 

[aefriot]

OK, I'm convinced. Calling the owner before they pick up my mill to see if we can make a deal. Thank you all for your time and advice.

About the Toolmaster, I know where I can get one with a lot of tooling for $2,000.

 

[Elwood1968]

OK, I'm convinced. Calling the owner before they pick up my mill to see if we can make a deal. Thank you all for your time and advice.

About the Toolmaster, I know where I can get one with a lot of tooling for $2,000.

Toolmasters were made in many versions (1-A, 1-B, 1-C, 1-D, 1-E, H-V, etc.), and the later ones were sourced from France, so $2k might or might not be a good price. In addition to the various models, they were also available with options, such as powered table feed and cross slide feed. So lots of variables in addition to the usual ones (condition, location, etc.) to sort out in terms of pricing.

 

[duckfarmer27]

aefroit -

Just to add on to Elwood's excellent advice. Mid 60s Cincinnati made a Cinel 202-12 in two versions. One was the H-V that he mentioned, the other was called a Vertical. I have one of the verticals, which is a Toolmaster 1-D head. The column/knee/saddle/table on both are from a COVEL 60. I am just mentioning this as Cincinnati seemed to make some low volume machines - with some, like mine, not even getting their own maintenance/parts manuals.

Mine sat a long time and to move it into my shop I had to pull the table. Glad I did as it turned out some of the lubrication lines/nozzles were plugged. As was mentioned above be careful of that when firing up the machine, make sure the oil is getting everywhere it should.

Forum members are great at helping - I had a lot easier time going through mine and getting it running with the help many on here offered as I ran into issues.

Good luck.

Dale

 

[aefriot]

I have more information.

I revisited the mill to check for ease of movements in the machine. Not expecting much, I didn't find much. While the machine has sat for years without use, it does seem tight/dirty/sticky, but not frozen. Hand movements are very stiff and were hard to engage. The knee lift I could not get to engage at all. It definitely needs disassembly, cleaning and lubrication before re-assembly.

I believe I found a bit of history on the machine. I think it was purchased in 1958 for use in the construction of the St Lawrence Seaway in Massena, NY. The Seaway Project was completed in 1959. If I am at all familiar with state projects and the equipment it uses, it was most likely warehoused soon afterward. I think it sat there until it was sent to salvage some 60 years later.

Of course, this could all be my imagination. I find literature on the machine's use in a plastic sheath with the machine on Seaway Project letterhead. If this true, there could be only 2 years use on this machine.

Included are a couple more pictures of the table for your viewing pleasure. The table appears to be in beautiful condition.

The seller can deliver to me, for a fee (Of course), as he has a truck with a crane.

I do have a couple questions, though. The building I plan to house this machine in has not started construction. Since disassembly for cleaning and lubrication is required anyway, I am asking for a weight estimate of the base of the machine. I have machinery to remove the smaller components to rustproof and move to storage for future cleaning, lubrication and assembly once the workshop is completed. I don't know if my tractor can move the base since I cannot estimate the weight of the base. I can lift and move 3,500lb.. Does anyone know the weight of the base? Maybe the other components? I can subtract the smaller components from the total (8,000?) estimated weight of the mill to obtain the base weight.

 

[Elwood1968]

Disassembling a machine for "preventative maintenance" can be a double-edged sword. Otherwise good parts can be damaged during disassembly, especially if you're not familiar with the machine or the process. Guilty of that one myself. And Cincinnati had a few quirks, such as set screws with a second lock screw, that can cause problems when trying to get things apart.

Before tearing into this mill, I'd do a service on it, especially flushing and then filling with new oil. I don't know if the MI mills have a filter in the knee like the later machines, but if so that item should be changed, too, but only with the correct filter. And check the hydraulic operating pressure, both before and after the fluid change.

I don't know the weight of the base casting, but I'd assume it's at least the 3,500lb. rating of your tractor (forks on the bucket?). That rating would be a bit to close for my comfort level, especially with an improvised forklift - you don't want to drop it!

 

[hvnlymachining]

If I recall correctly, the base of our Cincinnati #3 was around 6,000 lbs, and a little over 11,000 lbs shipping weight. Heavy iron tends to be... Heavy. A pain to move around the shop, a dream to machine with.

 

[aefriot]

Thank you everyone for your information and advice. I found a nice location for the No3MI. But I have to displace what I believe to be an old 1920's mill. The old mill needs to be put into an outbuilding that is not fully enclosed. It belongs to someone else. I want to be able to protect this mill from the elements. Mostly, I am concerned about moisture in the open air for a couple years until it too will be placed in its final resting place. I thought about a 50/50 mix of 30W and WD40 sprayed on the mill then covering it with plastic sheeting to keep the humidity from condensing on the steel. If this is not advised or a better method is not too expensive, please let me know.

 

[svs]

LPS 3 and a breathable drop cloth if the roof is good.

WD-40 is more solvent than preservative. Lots of better choices.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[aefriot]

Old mill is a Van Norman 22L

I found out more information on the old mill. I got a better look at it in behind a pile of lumber, bee hive boxes and cases of canning jars. It is a Van Norman 22L (Serial Number 22L-5050). I talked to the owner and he is willing to sell instead of putting it into storage. He states that it in need of a good cleaning and lubrication. It has had a spindle head motor replaced. He states rapids work, though he remembers knee up is slow. Since it has seldom been used, we assume sticky dust, dirt and dried oil is the issue as rapids with gravity assistance seems normal (nearly).

My purchase of the No 3 has been delayed as weather and its affects prevent our completing the deal. I must wait until at least Monday when the weather is more friendly. It will be nice to have a nice machine shop. A neighbor has agreed to join resources for a common goal. Mill, lathes, tapping drill press, welders, plasma cutters, tools, etc. are expensive and not fully utilized be either individual and will be available for the future generation to learn, work and entertain in one location.

 

[m-lud]

A product that prevents rust. Google [Fluid Film]
Don't waste money on the $ 10 aerosol cans. Buy a gallon and brush on a light coat. It's about $39 a gallon.
It works
I'm not selling this product.

Fluid Film (theruststore.com)

 

[aefriot]

Update.....

I purchased the mill. Now we are awaiting delivery. I opted for delivery instead of pickup. It would be much safer to have them put it on the ground since they have a truck and crane a short distance away. Had it been much further, I don't think I would have found the delivery charge as agreeable. Temperatures have not been above freezing. Cranes, as you may know, don't like cold weather. It is easy for something to break when they are asked to start, warm up and be used in frigid temperatures. This happened when they picked up my Cincinnati 28-120 last month, a part broke under the extra stress of being started when cold and delayed the mill's pickup by a day. I expect it will be a couple weeks before delivery.

In the meantime, we are trying to sell the Van Norman 22L ( https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/machinery-for-sale-or-wanted/fs-van-norman-22l-northern-ny-399886 ) as the owner does not wish to store it away, possibly forgotten for years. He feels, since we have the No3 to use, it would be better if someone were to make use of it.

I am also looking for tooling for the No3. I remember seeing tooling everywhere. Now that I am in need...nothing. I still have lots of time to find some. I have a full spring and summer ahead of me with other projects that take precedence. When weather is not so nice, there is cleaning and lubrication required...if not repairs.

 

[Elwood1968]

Sent you a PM about tooling.